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ADN vs BSN Nurses' Competency

Nurses   (10,766 Views | 103 Replies)

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Nurse Magnolia is a BSN, RN and specializes in Psychiatric RN.

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23 minutes ago, emilyjoy19 said:

However, all I am saying is BSNs have a broader, more developed patient care knowledge set.

And all we are saying is you are wrong and there is no evidence to support this. You have a broader education.....it is NOT in patient care knowledge. 
A BSN is great. No one is “bashing” BSN’s. What we are saying is it‘s not required for a patient care bedside nursing position.  It’s just not. You think you are elevating the profession advocating for this, but the way you are advocating for this is actually doing the opposite. 

You have a right to your opinion, but we have the right to point out that your ONE semester of nursing school might, just might, not be showing you the whole picture. 
Your entire attitude is condescending and insulting. Even the way you say that you “even” respect CNA’s and LPN’s because you need them to help you do your job.  CNA’s and LPN’s deserve your respect because they are people caring for patients...not because of what they can DO for you. 
You aren’t going to believe any of us.. That’s clear, even though you are arguing with some very expert nurses who are educators and leaders in their field (and I’m not including myself in that...I’ve only been a nurse for a year). But I guarantee someday, some nurse is going to make things clear for you. I hope for the patient’s sake you are willing to listen. Right now you sound like a know it all and that is very dangerous in nursing. Humility is a vital nursing skill you are sorely lacking. 

 

Edited by Nurse Magnolia

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LovingPeds has 10 years experience as a MSN, APRN, NP and specializes in Pediatrics; Maternal-Child Nursing Education.

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1 minute ago, emilyjoy19 said:

They're allowed to sit for the same NCLEX because they have the core nursing skills essential for safe practice. However, all I am saying is BSNs have a broader, more developed patient care knowledge set.

I never used the "you're just jealous" stance. I was simply reiterating what one of my professors, an esteemed figure who is on multiple boards including ANA and NANDA, was saying. Again, I respect everyone--I even respect the CNAs and LPNs because they are essential to us doing our jobs. I just have my own opinion based on my schooling. You are allowed to disagree and respectfully present your side to me. But I too have a right to advocate for a BSN entry nursing profession so we can be elevated and lauded as the skilled professionals we are. 

You don't know what you don't know.

"I even respect the CNAs and LPNs because they are essential to us doing our jobs." Because they aren't worthy of respect otherwise? You are lowering yourself to respect them? Is that what you are implying?

You must be very young or very green.

My collaborator is a physician with over 25 years experience in pediatrics and who has educated physicians for the last 15 years. I watched him discuss a patient's immunizations with an LPN with 8 years of experience today and then concede that this experienced LPN was right about the amount of time between a particular vaccination and that he had it wrong. But yet you scarcely seem to respect them.

"Lauded as the skilled professionals we are." We already are - based on our trustworthiness to the public. Arrogance doesn't give the impression of trustworthiness to most people....

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I clearly won't reach a consensus with anyone trying to refute me on this thread. I hear your opinions, though I (and honestly, my entire nursing faculty) will respectfully disagree. I am proud of myself for choosing to be a BSN nurse and I wish our entire profession would rise to that standard.

ALL allied health professionals are worthy of respect. I use the word "even" because unfortunately, some of my classmates have had...run-ins...with some CNAs/LPNs at our clinical facility thinking they know it all. I respect the knowledge that comes from experience, as the daughter and niece of two experienced nurses. 

I know I will be a great nurse. I don't need validation from strangers who only know me through comments on a computer screen. While my tone may suggest one thing, I know I am intelligent and willing to learn the art and science of nursing for the good of my patients. I bring a passion and sincerity to the profession that many of my classmates seem to lack (many of them view RN as a stepping stone to APRN). 

I am linking some studies below, for those of you curious as to where I have gotten my statistics. I truly do thank you all for your service as nurses and am excited to join the workforce as an RN, BSN in two years. I will continue to stay here on AN because I know many of y'all have an abundancy of knowledge that I may glean so I can better my practice. 

https://journals.lww.com/nurseeducatoronline/Abstract/2016/07000/RN_BSN_Students__Perceptions_of_the_Differences_in.15.aspx

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b38/518e2e47686ac57f38ba991053d775862835.pdf

https://sigma.nursingrepository.org/bitstream/handle/10755/616155/3_ONeill_M_p79302_1.pdf?sequence=1

 

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londonflo has 43 years experience and specializes in oncology.

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1 hour ago, Nurse Magnolia said:

My school requires us to introduce ourselves as BSN students because they said we should be proud of our further education and competency. And we are only allowed to have BSN prepared preceptors.

As BSN students, during your first semester, what are your further competencies? I posted yesterday regarding my 40 + years in providing nursing education for diploma, associate degree and bachelors programs. I have learned that students, in their excitement at  the possibility of joining this profession sometimes exaggerate what they have learned. For example, a student (not mine) in response to my asking about her clinicals  said "I started blood".  When I explored this as it was either an overstatement or against the nurse-practice act in my state, it turned out that she had "assisted" in priming the tubing. 

 Getting back to your quote:  From my extensive experience in dealing with the curriculum, faculty and students in each type of program, your first semester is rooted in the principles of care and safety. Your college does not have any principles of care and safety that other programs do not.  I have been instrumental in the development of 2 different nursing diploma programs phasing out and becoming single purpose BSN programs. Both programs achieved full BSN accreditation  and have kept it.

I am also confused on your BSN preceptors statement. Do you not have a clinical instructor or is the preceptor the nurse responsible for the patient? Are you in a facility that has an abundance of BSN nurses so that those students in your entire clinical group each have a "preceptor"? Chances are, if the required BSN preceptor is not available, any RN with a license will help you meet your clinical goals. Sacrificing clinical time because of a lack of  "suitable" preceptor is foolhardy.

 

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Nurse Magnolia is a BSN, RN and specializes in Psychiatric RN.

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11 minutes ago, gratefulheart365 said:

I clearly won't reach a consensus with anyone trying to refute me on this thread. I hear your opinions, though I (and honestly, my entire nursing faculty) will respectfully disagree. I am proud of myself for choosing to be a BSN nurse and I wish our entire profession would rise to that standard.

ALL allied health professionals are worthy of respect. I use the word "even" because unfortunately, some of my classmates have had...run-ins...with some CNAs/LPNs at our clinical facility thinking they know it all. I respect the knowledge that comes from experience, as the daughter and niece of two experienced nurses. 

I know I will be a great nurse. I don't need validation from strangers who only know me through comments on a computer screen. While my tone may suggest one thing, I know I am intelligent and willing to learn the art and science of nursing for the good of my patients. I bring a passion and sincerity to the profession that many of my classmates seem to lack (many of them view RN as a stepping stone to APRN). 

I am linking some studies below, for those of you curious as to where I have gotten my statistics. I truly do thank you all for your service as nurses and am excited to join the workforce as an RN, BSN in two years. I will continue to stay here on AN because I know many of y'all have an abundancy of knowledge that I may glean so I can better my practice. 

https://journals.lww.com/nurseeducatoronline/Abstract/2016/07000/RN_BSN_Students__Perceptions_of_the_Differences_in.15.aspx

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b38/518e2e47686ac57f38ba991053d775862835.pdf

https://sigma.nursingrepository.org/bitstream/handle/10755/616155/3_ONeill_M_p79302_1.pdf?sequence=1

 

And here's where your education has not caught up to your ego.  The first study was about students' PERCEPTIONS of the difference between ADN and BSN - so opinions....which mean nothing in peer-reviewed research.  Claims need to be backed up with data.  

The second article was specific to a small geographic area with a small sample size and ONLY referred to community health.  Not acute bedside care, which is what we've been talking about here.  The study itself says "The number of schools participating in this study was limited and represented a small geographic area of the United States, therefore, the results cannot be generalized to other areas." So this study also does not back up your claims. 

The third link was a powerpoint that clearly doesn't look peer-reviewed, but rather a class assignment.  

You could probably find studies to back up your claims - but these aren't them.     But others could also find studies to refute them.  That's where experience comes in.  

No one said not to be proud of your degree - but please, for the love of GOD, stop acting like those of us who completed diploma or ASN degrees are knuckle dragging death traps waiting for you BSN nurses to hop out of your sorority to show us how it's done.  Please....You yourself said you have some pretty crappy classmates.  They will have their BSN.  Stop making generalizations and you won't offend so many.  This may come with age....one can hope.  

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This^^^ about a million times over. A Likert scale?!! Come on. 

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Nurse Magnolia is a BSN, RN and specializes in Psychiatric RN.

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7 minutes ago, londonflo said:

As BSN students, during your first semester, what are your further competencies? I posted yesterday regarding my 40 + years in providing nursing education for diploma, associate degree and bachelors programs. I have learned that students, in their excitement at  the possibility of joining this profession sometimes exaggerate what they have learned. For example, a student (not mine) in response to my asking about her clinicals  said "I started blood".  When I explored this as it was either an overstatement or against the nurse-practice act in my state, it turned out that she had "assisted" in priming the tubing. 

 Getting back to your quote:  From my extensive experience in dealing with the curriculum, faculty and students in each type of program, your first semester is rooted in the principles of care and safety. Your college does not have any principles of care and safety that other programs do not.  I have been instrumental in the development of 2 different nursing diploma programs phasing out and becoming single purpose BSN programs. Both programs achieved full BSN accreditation  and have kept it.

I am also confused on your BSN preceptors statement. Do you not have a clinical instructor or is the preceptor the nurse responsible for the patient? Are you in a facility that has an abundance of BSN nurses so that those students in your entire clinical group each have a "preceptor"? Chances are, if the required BSN preceptor is not available, any RN with a license will help you meet your clinical goals. Sacrificing clinical time because of a lack of  "suitable" preceptor is foolhardy.

 

1 hour ago, Nurse Magnolia said:

My school requires us to introduce ourselves as BSN students because they said we should be proud of our further education and competency. And we are only allowed to have BSN prepared preceptors.

 

Just to be clear, I was quoting Gratefulheart365 (who's screen named changed from Emilyjoy about 5 minutes ago) in the message you quoted for this wonderful reply - *I* didn't say the above! 

Edited by Nurse Magnolia

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LovingPeds has 10 years experience as a MSN, APRN, NP and specializes in Pediatrics; Maternal-Child Nursing Education.

93 Posts; 627 Profile Views

5 minutes ago, emilyjoy19 said:

I am linking some studies below, for those of you curious as to where I have gotten my statistics. I truly do thank you all for your service as nurses and am excited to join the workforce as an RN, BSN in two years. I will continue to stay here on AN because I know many of y'all have an abundancy of knowledge that I may glean so I can better my practice. 

https://journals.lww.com/nurseeducatoronline/Abstract/2016/07000/RN_BSN_Students__Perceptions_of_the_Differences_in.15.aspx

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b38/518e2e47686ac57f38ba991053d775862835.pdf

https://sigma.nursingrepository.org/bitstream/handle/10755/616155/3_ONeill_M_p79302_1.pdf?sequence=1

 

I'm going to take the bait. Let's take research two.

"A descriptive design was used to investigate the differences in the degree of exposure to community health concepts between nursing students from six nursing programs-three ADNs and three BSNs" (Ghaffari, 2017).

So basically this is a qualitative study. Definitely one of the lower levels of research as it is neither controlled, randomized, or even necessarily able to demonstrate the same results with a different group utilizing the same methods.

"Analysis of data showed there was a difference in the perceived exposure to community health nursing concepts, with BSN students perceiving greater exposure to the concepts. Also, there was a difference in the community health orientation of students, with the highest orientation demonstrated in BSN programs" (Ghaffari, 2017). This study was performed by asking student perception in basic questionnaire form about how much exposure they felt they had to community health nursing within their curriculum. A lot of BSN programs have an entire class dedicated to it. I remember mine. Haven't used any of the concepts since. Most ADN students get the same information but throughout their two years of education - usually in practical application as it applies to health and resources. Is really any wonder that the students who had nothing else to look at during their class felt they had more exposure?

"Replication of this study using a larger and more varied sample would be necessary if accurate and useful generalization are to be made about education for community health nursing. The inclusion of a variety of schools from across the United States would be more indicative of community health nursing in a broad sense rather than limited to a small region and thus results would be more valid for all nursing curricula" (Ghaffari, 2017).

The only thing that proved to me is that you haven't yet reached the ability to independently determine which studies indicate the need for further study and which studies are high quality and truly valid.

Your third posted, the PowerPoint, is much the same way. In fact, the conclusion is literally "Safe efficacious care may depend on the nurse’s ability to effectively integrate experience, education, and expert knowledge" (O'Neill, 2016).

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RyanCarolinaBoy has 15 years experience as a ADN, BSN, MSN and specializes in ICU.

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32 minutes ago, gratefulheart365 said:

I clearly won't reach a consensus with anyone trying to refute me on this thread. I hear your opinions, though I (and honestly, my entire nursing faculty) will respectfully disagree. I am proud of myself for choosing to be a BSN nurse and I wish our entire profession would rise to that standard.

ALL allied health professionals are worthy of respect. I use the word "even" because unfortunately, some of my classmates have had...run-ins...with some CNAs/LPNs at our clinical facility thinking they know it all. I respect the knowledge that comes from experience, as the daughter and niece of two experienced nurses. 

I know I will be a great nurse. I don't need validation from strangers who only know me through comments on a computer screen. While my tone may suggest one thing, I know I am intelligent and willing to learn the art and science of nursing for the good of my patients. I bring a passion and sincerity to the profession that many of my classmates seem to lack (many of them view RN as a stepping stone to APRN). 

I am linking some studies below, for those of you curious as to where I have gotten my statistics. I truly do thank you all for your service as nurses and am excited to join the workforce as an RN, BSN in two years. I will continue to stay here on AN because I know many of y'all have an abundancy of knowledge that I may glean so I can better my practice. 

https://journals.lww.com/nurseeducatoronline/Abstract/2016/07000/RN_BSN_Students__Perceptions_of_the_Differences_in.15.aspx

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b38/518e2e47686ac57f38ba991053d775862835.pdf

https://sigma.nursingrepository.org/bitstream/handle/10755/616155/3_ONeill_M_p79302_1.pdf?sequence=1

 

Law...this ole ADN versus BSN debate just keeps on raging, year after year. 
 

can I just reply that if you are going to use data to back your statements, please make sure it is peer reviewed articles.

one thing about nursing “together we are stronger”. I have seen many great CNAs, LPNs, ADNs and BSNs in my years. I have learned something from many of individuals in each role. 
 

I would encourage you to rethink the attitude that BSN is superior in confidence. Competence is fluid and is determined by a multitude of factors. Having precepted new graduates with ADN and BSN, there is no difference in the clinical acute care arena. Neither is superior when starting as a new grad. 

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londonflo has 43 years experience and specializes in oncology.

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15 minutes ago, Nurse Magnolia said:

Just to be clear, I was quoting Gratefulheart365 (who's screen named changed from Emilyjoy about 5 minutes ago) in the message you quoted for this wonderful reply - *I* didn't say the above! 

I deeply apologize for the mistake of attributing the quote to the wrong poster. Thank you for noting it.

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2 minutes ago, RyanCarolinaBoy said:

Having precepted new graduates with ADN and BSN, there is no difference in the clinical acute care arena. Neither is superior when starting as a new grad. 

And increasing competency has little to do with a person’s foundational education instead relying almost entirely on the individual’s acumen, innate critical thinking skills and motivation to learn. 

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1 hour ago, emilyjoy19 said:

I HAVE been on the floor, actually. Just finished Fundamentals and clinical.

Well, congratulations on making it up to almost knowing what a CNA knows.  Fundamentals is literally a CNA course.  Though, every one of us would still run circles around you because you're still extremely inexperienced.

You need to learn that the gap you think exists from your degree you're maybe going to get is almost completely nonexistent.  To really give some perspective, in most states a CNA can get certified to give meds, and lots of these states even let CNAs do some invasive procedures like starting an IV or putting in a catheter.  As long as there's a structured procedure for doing it, it's allowed in most states.  Most CNA limitations are facility policy, not state law.  Every CNA is expected to know how to respond to a patient having trouble breathing to stabilize that before going and getting the nurse.  The gap from CNA to RN is actually really small.  The main difference is the RN is qualified to use independent judgement based on assessment.  And they're allowed to (officially) educate (really every person in the hospital educates, the RN is just responsible for it).  Because of that, when you start right out of school, every aide on your unit is going to know more than you do.  That is how little your BSN matters over an ADN.  So drop the ego.  There's no better quality of care for having a BSN over an ADN.  The person who takes better care of the patients is going to be the one with more experience, and the one that thinks they know more than everyone else because of their degree is going to be the one that can never seem to find help and has to struggle through ever day at work.

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