:nurse:Recently I have been bummed about all the negativity in the nursing profession. I have vented my thought through this site about lateral violence, bad attitudes and the hardship of being a new grad. One evening, several nurse friends and I were griping about those same topics, however among us that evening was a psychologist. She stated that she has listened to us gripe and gripe and wondered if we wanted her scholarly opinion. Since gripping was getting us no where, we said sure. This is a basics of what she said....
"Nursing is a complex and diverse profession, there are nurse in pediatrics and onocology and surgey and home care and so on. There are nurses that are older and new and younger a new, younger and experienced, younger and inexperienced. There nurses that are christians, muslims, buddists and aetheist. There are nurses that are from the U.S. , from India, from England and so on. There are nurses that are LPN, RN ,ADN, BSN, MSN, etc. You are a very diverse group of professionals that are all grouped under the title of nurses. I'm I correct"
"20- 30 years ago was nursing that diverse? Probably not."
"The job of nursing has grown and changed over the years. But the professon has not. Nurses still must do the things that were standard 20 years ago. All those things that were considered paying your dues to the profession before you could be considered a nurse. The early morning classes, the having to work one or more years in acute care before moving into something more suitable, working hours that were potentially harmful to self and patients, the dealing with bad preceptors and nursing instructors, and living with the lateral violence."
" Nursing needs to embrace this diveristy, utililize it to it's fullest extent. Use the strong personal attributes of the diverse group of people to the fullest extent, instead of pigeon holeing them into the way things have always been done. Done that way for no reason other than that is the way it has always been done. Prehaps if that new grad is 'not getting it' on a the med/surg floor, she isn't suppose to. He/she is prehaps more suited to working in home care or surgery. Each area of nursing has it's own attritubes that work in that setting. Use the personal attributes to allow each nurse to be the best nurse that he/ she can be.
I had to sit back and think about that. Alison was right. Not everyone is going to be a great floor nurse or a great surgical nurse. That is one the greatest things about nursing. I have met surgical nurse who be horrid as pediatric nurses and peds nurses who just don't get geriatrics. There are nurses who couldn't write a scholarly article to save their jibs but are the most wonderful at adminstration. Each of us comes with our good and bad attributes. Utilize those attributes.
Those of us nurses, said 'you just can't change the old ways because you want to" Alison answered back with. "You all believe in evidence based practice. Then find the evidence. Do research. If the changes still don't come, then can you truly can't say your practice is not based on evidence. For example, You all complain about lateral violence. First of all that is also part of the human existance. It is the way females are taught and expected to act. I know many of you don't act that way, but it is inherent in the way females and those with female patterns act. Secondly, If you believe that lateral violence is a detriment, then prove it. Find those good at research and find how what effect lateral violence has on the work place, the burn-out rate of nurses, the drop out rate of new nurses, the effects on patients and patient's families. If there is a positive correlation between lateral violence and negative outcome, find away to change it. Use all the great education you have received. You know what they say, 'cure the symptoms and the problem still exists, cure the problem and it goes away'.
I find those to be great words of wisdom. Utilize the individual attributes of nurses to the fullest extent for both ourselves as nurses and as people. Do just settle for it because it has always been done that way. Take charge of our profession and make it a profession that we can all enjoy, excel at, and be proud of.
Messed up my editing to my post above. Meant to add below the quote:
Your friend's comments and suggestions are interesting, but in my opinion you need to be a nurse to really understand how the dynamics of the profession work. Her comments about how we just need to become change agents and how we need to gather evidence based practice and show it to the right people and changes will occur shows me she doesn't "get it." They sound like the musings of a 28 year old grad student in sociology--pretty darn naive. (Apologies to any grad students I might have offended.) I agree with the poster I quoted--you have to have certain conditions in place for mass change to occur, and though there are some rumblings beneath the surface, those conditions are not yet in place.
We've known for years that nursing is extremely dysfunctional. We already have studies that prove that. And the powers that be ignore them and will continue to ignore them until there is a compelling reason (read "economic advantage") to pay attention.
It is the way females are taught and expected to act. I know many of you don't act that way, but it is inherent in the way females and those with female patterns act. :
Females like being laterally violent (what is that?)... or females like doing research???
"Just to be safe, I think I'll go purchase one of those neat shark chain suits and wear under my scrubs just to keep the claw marks to a minimum. "
Don't you worry, Strep, you've already shown that you have a sense of humor and an understanding of the world that you're about to step into. Goodness knows, nursing school was most likely more of an education than you bargained for.
One of my favorite co-workers is a male RN and it just makes my day when my assignment is aligned with his. I know for a fact that we will work steadily and hard all day, without drama or intrigue. He keeps himself above the fray, so to speak, and openly rebuts any efforts by other nurses (usually female) to draw him into any developing gossip or issues. It's just plain restful to work with him. Now, of course, I can't generalize that all male nurses are as easy to work with, but I honestly believe that lack of drama is more a male characteristic than female.
I had a priest once explain to me what an enneagram is. A model of human personality that uses an enneagram figure. It is interesting to read about it and realize how you can fit people into each category.
This model believes that everyone belongs in a personality category 1-9.
1 is the reformer
2 is the helper
3 the achiever
4 the individualist
5 the investigator
6 the loyalist
7 the enthusiast
8 the challenger
9 the peacemaker
There is a healthy side and an unhealthy side to each category. Many nurses fit into category 2 (the helper), the caring interpersonal type. They are sincere,warm hearted, friendly, generous and self sacrificing. They can also be sentimental and people-pleasing. They mean well, but can sometimes do thins for others in order to be needed. They have problems with possessiveness and with acknowledging their own needs. They love unconditionally. Their fear is that they will be unwanted and unworthy of love Their movtivation is the want ot be loved and the need to be appreciated and to get others to respond to them so that they feel better about themselves.
When they become stressed their flaws exacerbate. Needy twos become aggressive and dominating. Healthy twos are most genuinely helpful to other people. When they are healthy and in balance, they are loving, helpful, generous and considerate. They enliven others with their appreciation and attention, helping people to see positive qualities in themselves that they had not previously recognized. Unhealthy twos are the most highly invested in seeing themselves as helpful and see their helpfulness. They seek validation of their worth by putting others first and being unselfish. The problem is that putting others first makes twos secretly angry and resentful because they have feelings they work hard to repress or deny. They erupt in ways that disrupt their relationships and reveal that they are inauthentic.
I think that the problem is that their are too many unhealthy twos in nursing. As twos we have to step back and take care of ourselves and do things for ourselves and not always for others so that our unhealthy resentful side does not rear its head. So that we don't end up upsetting ourselves and others.
Also interesting to know is that twos are right next to ones (so we pick up some of their qualities) which are known as advocates and reformers(teachers fit in this category). They are also know as perfectionists (which has its own issues). We are also next to the threes which are know as the achievers. So, add those issues into the mix.
Okay, I'm all for EBP and nursing research--but that takes years and money and we have a looming nursing crisis. I still think nursing schools could do a better job of preparing new grads for the workplace and/or hospitals need to invest more in integrating new grads with internships. So many nursing students come to clinicals focused on their med passes instead of their patients. Do nursing schools teach how to handle lateral violence, beyond interpersonal communication class? Or do they just warn them about the old nurses who eat their young?
And geez Louise, can someone please come up with a method of documentation that doesn't eat up 50% of my time? Do I really need a double-blind prospective study to show that my time is better spent at the bedside instead of at the keyboard?
I see feelings in this thread in which women are saying "they don't like working with women, i want to work with just men". Or "Women are just like that." Men and WOMEN say women get to "emotional", "irrational". I even see the term "hoes" on this thread already. (by the way- i always chuckle on the phase bros and hoes.. kinda funny how man are called bros.a united, brotherhood term while women are coined a sexist degrading objectifying term)
When asked the question why do women treat other women so bad, the answer is always that's how women are. Come on?!
See thats the problem. No one can seem to dig deeper and ask WHY and why do THEY feel that way themselves? They are actually still reinforcing and contributing to the problem without even knowing it.
Nursing is historically a very sexist profession. It was one of the few careers women had in the past as a job to pick from and were shut out from MANY other positions.
So why when were are talking about behaviors and problems within the nursing profession no one is talking about the real root of the problem and the primary gender who make it up?
If we are talking about the way women on a whole treat each other we are talking about internalized sexism. This is the base of the problem and not only in nurses but in women on a whole period. This type of behavior is learned and reinforced by a oppressive patriarch system.
See- Once you understand and research internalized sexism and the effects it has on women and how and why they treat each other it makes it very clear. Its not the women that are the problem, its the effects of external sexism they have internalized that is the problem. The sad part about it is, even though most will deny it to the day they die, women still actively participate in sexism and keep it a on going structure whether they realize it or not.
Since this is a nursing board, and we are talking about the nursing "profession" the only way to truly change and understand why women treat each other they way they do and ALLOW themselves to be treated in this abusive "profession" is WOMEN really need to change themselves psychologically. When they do they will stop protecting patriarchy and stop giving power to these sexist oppressive systems.
If we are talking about passive aggressive behavior in nurses, doesn't it make sense that the majority of the women who make up this field are like that because it is taught that women should NOT be assertive? I wonder where they learned and internalized this sexist behavior from? Men can be upfront and verbally aggressive, though?
the only way to change the actions, attitudes, problems within the profession the PEOPLE in it have to CHANGE. The people make the profession.
OMG! The nursing profession is screwed up because of women.
I don't have the words right now but this is so wrong wrong wrong
the previous poster covers some of what I feel
Is this behavior how 'oppressed' people act. They cannot 'act' against the oppressor/society/management/employer and strike out against their peers. (kick the dog behavior - projection...)
Divide and conquer...and we remain angry. just surviving and stuck in an unfulfilling job not a career.
Is this some kind of regional thing? I work with an amazing group of professionals, many of them women. Yes, we've had a few toxic individuals, but when they can't stir up trouble they move on to some place with more victims. My workplace problems have more to do with unreasonable work loads and managers, and new nurses who are expected to perform like a seasoned nurse from the beginning. They get burned out because they feel like they must be perfect, disciplined because they get overtime and leave the profession within 2 years. We seasoned nurses are frustrated with the way care has deteriorated and the push for customer service.
As I near the end of my 40th(!) year in nursing I continue with one very firm belief...if our profession were male dominated we would be earning twice as much and be required to do half as much to earn it.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
If we boil down Alison's analysis of our profession-
In 1990 (20yrs ago) Pretty much everybody had the same religion, age, race and gender. They were all "RNs". Advanced practice hadn't been invented yet.
Even though nursing has advanced in terms of new treatments and high-tech-y gadgetry the Draconian hazing rituals (living with lateral violence, working long and unsafe hours, accepting verbal abuse, indentured servitude in an acute unit) are standards. They don't change. Just deal.
Orientation and precepting is kind of Montessori school environment where everybody does their thing and we shouldn't be forcing conformity on them because that would stifle their free spirit and their unique personality.
A "skill set" is defined as specific procedures you've mastered such as NGs Foleys, etc.
You shouldn't be a nurse if you don't feel like inside you actually are a nurse right after you graduate.
Well, I can't say I agree totally with Alison's comments. Sure, new grads do sometimes get the sh-- kicked down hill- but I've never seen and don't believe it was ever that extreme for all nurses as a dues paying ritual before you are considered to be a real nurse. The skill set I think, is better described as a way of looking, listening and thinking. My fist job was in pediatrics. I had never cathed an adult male pt. in school. It didn't matter a hoot in he1l if I'd been checked off on it.
It can take years(and years) for some people to feel like a real nurse. Even after I did sorta feel like a nurse, something can happen and I'm back to Impostor Nurse. It's a psychological thing, so probably Alison can offer you some insight into that.
However, she's right that we should celebrate our diversity!!
maxthecat
243 Posts
Messed up my editing to my post above. Meant to add below the quote:
Your friend's comments and suggestions are interesting, but in my opinion you need to be a nurse to really understand how the dynamics of the profession work. Her comments about how we just need to become change agents and how we need to gather evidence based practice and show it to the right people and changes will occur shows me she doesn't "get it." They sound like the musings of a 28 year old grad student in sociology--pretty darn naive. (Apologies to any grad students I might have offended.) I agree with the poster I quoted--you have to have certain conditions in place for mass change to occur, and though there are some rumblings beneath the surface, those conditions are not yet in place.
We've known for years that nursing is extremely dysfunctional. We already have studies that prove that. And the powers that be ignore them and will continue to ignore them until there is a compelling reason (read "economic advantage") to pay attention.