A course where no one ever gets an A

elkpark · May 6, 2009

I, personally, would not be concerned with that, as long as the majority of the students were passing. With the rampant grade inflation in academia at this point, it's a rather refreshing change of pace! An "A" should be rare, I think. In the last BSN program in which I taught, the grade inflation was so bad that nearly every nursing student graduated with honors, and I had clinical students CRY in their clinical evaluations because I gave them a "B" (senior level students, and this was the first time they'd gotten a "B" -- and, believe me, we're talking about students who weren't bad, but they were certainly nothing special). We (the entire academic community) seem to have forgotten that a "C" is supposed to represent average work, "B" is above average, and "A" is supposed to be really outstanding. By definition and statistically, most students are doing average work. :)

Frankly, I would like v. much to see us return to a system in which an "A" really meant something.

llg, PhD, RN · May 6, 2009

Many years ago ... when I went to school, there were a couple of classes like that. No one EVER got an "A." It was mathematically almost impossible. It took all the incentive out of trying. Getting a "B" was not that hard, so the students just aimed for the "B" and saved their strength for other things.

While I abhor grade inflation and believe that an "A" should be something special ... I believe that "A's" should be realistically possible for the top students in the class. If you feel secure in your job, I'd go ahead and say something. Maybe other people feel the same way but are afraid to speak up.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · May 6, 2009

According to the norm referencing philosophy, classroom grades should follow a "bell curve." That means there should be just a few "As" (outstanding performance), a few more "Bs" (above average), lots of "Cs" (since this reflects average performance), and a few Ds and below (which is failing).

showbizrn · May 9, 2009

:twocents: in some bsn programs, the required gpa is 3.0 or above (b or above).

i beleive in maya angelou's teaching decree, "you start out with a grade of "a," but you have to maintain it"---which means your test grades, papers, etc.

this often motivates students to work and strive for excellence.

if the students aren't capable of a-level work, they receive the grade they've earned.

a little motivation goes a long way.

i teach the clinical area which has different requirements than lecture.

:specs:

MissDoodaw · May 19, 2009

According to the norm referencing philosophy, classroom grades should follow a "bell curve." That means there should be just a few "As" (outstanding performance), a few more "Bs" (above average), lots of "Cs" (since this reflects average performance), and a few Ds and below (which is failing).

Most nursing schools condsider below 75% or mid "C" to be failing rather than average. Another poster noted that her school a student must maintain a 3.0 or "B" average to complete their program. At the graduate level that changes to above 83% to pass. This translates into graduating nurses who are all at least slightly above average academically.

I do believe nursing is a very challenging, demanding profession.

But, I do not believe academic grades are always a true reflection of the potential someone has to be a superior nurse. Grades can measure academic aptitude, the ability of the student to succeed at the fast pace of nursing school, as well as predict NCLEX pass rates.

We all have seen the student who struggled academically then later on become this wonderful, compassionate nurse with a solid understanding of all the academics they once struggled with. Likewise, the student with the perfect grades and academic successes struggling as a nurse, with difficulty applying the academic concepts to real patients.

So the question becomes, Is this the goal of nursing school to have the norm bell curve grade distribution? Should grade distribution follow a bell curve even when nursing schools are traditionally able to select high acheiving students from a large applicant pool? If this is the case consider the attrition rate at your school. If it is high does this reflect a school with high standards or does this reflect a school that needs to re-evaluate its methodology for student selection?

I am not sure what side of the argument I totally agree with. I am just putting the questions out there:typing

Whispera, MSN, RN · May 19, 2009

I've heard of courses where the word is that "no one gets an A" but that isn't the true situation most of the time. It's just those that didn't get an A talking. When I was in nursing school there were some courses that had that reputation, but I got As in a few of them and so did other students in my class.

You have access to other instructors' grades?

My opinion is that if no one gets an A, ever, there's something wrong with the course, tests, or method of grading. If no one can get a question correct on a test, for instance (or if most don't), there's something wrong with the question. Students who study hard, and do excellent work shouldn't be penalized because it's traditional to give no A's.

iteachob, MSN, RN · May 19, 2009

I've heard of courses where the word is that "no one gets an A" but that isn't the true situation most of the time. It's just those that didn't get an A talking. When I was in nursing school there were some courses that had that reputation, but I got As in a few of them and so did other students in my class.
You have access to other instructors' grades?
My opinion is that if no one gets an A, ever, there's something wrong with the course, tests, or method of grading. If no one can get a question correct on a test, for instance (or if most don't), there's something wrong with the question. Students who study hard, and do excellent work shouldn't be penalized because it's traditional to give no A's.

No, I don't have access to the other instructor's grades (as in their gradebook). However, in nursing faculty meetings we DO give course updates (not specific student names, but pretty detailed course updates). Also, being an advisor....I have a great deal of access to student transcripts. This semester, the instructors for this course actually said "we had one B, 3 failures (

I completely concur with your last paragraph.

BeenThereDoneThat74, MSN, RN · May 27, 2009

I assume this is a not a school where there is team teaching? What is the schools policy on reviewing exams, going over item analyses, etc? Do you use a test bank? Is there any peer reviewing going on? Where I teach, we are all in each other business it seems, which I don't think is such a terrible thing. It's a small school, and when students complain, or we see that too many people are not doing well, we scrutinize the situation.

I do find it a bit odd, I must say. While I do agree that the majoruty of students should not be getting As in classes, there does need to be a distribution of grades. My students hate my reply when they aske me how they did on an exam (before grades are posted): they say, in unison "It was a nice curve" :chuckle

caliotter3 · May 28, 2009

in some bsn programs, the required gpa is 3.0 or above (b or above).

i beleive in maya angelou's teaching decree, "you start out with a grade of "a," but you have to maintain it"---which means your test grades, papers, etc.

this often motivates students to work and strive for excellence.

if the students aren't capable of a-level work, they receive the grade they've earned.

a little motivation goes a long way.

i teach the clinical area which has different requirements than lecture.

i worked where job evaluations had a numerical score as well as narrative comment. whenever i had new employees, i always told them that they had a perfect job evaluation to start with and the only way for that to change was for them to fall short along the way. i see classroom performance the same way. everyone should have an equal shot at an a.

iteachob, MSN, RN · May 28, 2009

I assume this is a not a school where there is team teaching? What is the schools policy on reviewing exams, going over item analyses, etc? Do you use a test bank? Is there any peer reviewing going on? Where I teach, we are all in each other business it seems, which I don't think is such a terrible thing. It's a small school, and when students complain, or we see that too many people are not doing well, we scrutinize the situation.
I do find it a bit odd, I must say. While I do agree that the majoruty of students should not be getting As in classes, there does need to be a distribution of grades. My students hate my reply when they aske me how they did on an exam (before grades are posted): they say, in unison "It was a nice curve" :chuckle

This particular course is team taught. One of the instructors (the team changed in Spring 09) is brand new to teaching, the other has about 1 1/2 years of didactic under her belt. Our policy is to do an in-class review of exams with students (I'm not sure that is what you mean), giving rationales, etc. We do have a Scantron which is capable of giving a detailed item analysis. It is my opinion that the members of this team don't entirely understand the meaning of the KR20, point bi-serials, p-value, etc. I'm not sure how my help would be received....I recently passed the CNE (Sept 08, only one on our faculty) and I don't want to be seen as a "know it all".

Test banks are used by, I'd say, most faculty. I use them myself, but they are pretty heavily edited, because, frankly, most straight-up test banks are awful. I have my own personal test bank of questions (tried & true.....good analysis) that I have collected over the years. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this team used exactly the same tests handed down to them from the previous team. I do not team teach (everyone avoids OB, like the plague).

Peer review is something I really would like to see used where I work. We've had a recent faculty turnover of about 25%, and I think this could be very productive. The only other faculty member who has ever darkened the door of my classroom is our division chair! Then again, I've not observed other faculty teaching myself, but would welcome the opportunity to be reviewed (and to review).

A's are definitely NOT easy to come by in our program, but it just seems that semester after semester, this course has no A's at all; just...strange.

BabyLady, BSN, RN · May 28, 2009

As a student, that just graduated from nursing school....this is where faculty needs to look at past course evaluations and student comments for guidance.

Students will always tell you where they think faculty could improve...with my school, the grades, overall, were very poor. The only A's were from experienced LPN's...you can't exactly compare that to a student with no previous medical training.

The difference, that I saw...was that the faculty went TOO MUCH in depth as to what such and such disorder was...rather than to tell us as nurses, how to fix it.

Yes, knowing the disease process is important, but only to a point...there is a point where the physician takes over and a nurse's expectation of knowledge ends...but new nurses need to know what their role is...and as a student, I really felt like I taught myself this.

However, programs that want to blame everything on the students and cast evaluations to the wayside as something to do at the end of the year and never bother to read them....are doing the program and the students, a grave disservice.

Most students that I know give a detailed, honest evaluation....there are always a few that don't want to work hard and are disgruntled...but in order to truly improve the program...ego's need to be checked at the front door.