NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 9

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   teeituptom
    Quote from mattsmom81
    It is amusing to me how facilities and TPTB love more education/letters after names...it makes them look better to have a highly educated group of employees after all.

    I've looked into my BSN several times and always get the same runaround. My diploma nursing courses and the university prereqs (obtained at a university NOT a community college) are ALWAYS a problem and they want me to essentially repeat 90% of my education!!! Now in my 28th year as a RN, critical care with my CCRN, WHY would I choose to go into debt again, waste my time repeating courses, and have my family suffer?? I chose not to as I don't wish to manage or move into MSN type roles. I do agree in BS as entry level (like Canada has done) but will draw the line if I am FORCED to return to school. What nonsense. I will retire and we will be short another experienced, practicing nurse. Wonder how many NYS nurses feel the same?

    And to someone who said diploma RN's were 'grandfathered' to get their associates degrees, you are misinformed. I remain a DIPLOMA RN and went to school 3 yrs.We graduated some of the best nurses in the state IMO. Our school closed down from pressure and lobbying from the academic snobs at the universities.

    I am working with more and more new new BSN's that simply have no clue how to function in real world facility nursing....and it amazes me how so many truly feel superior to me...a 28 some yr 'lowly' diploma nurse.....LOL. When the poop hits the fan they sure do yell loud for this lowly nurses' help.

    Ya can't treat people badly tho and expect camaraderie...this is why the dissention in the nursing ranks. The BSN academic snobs propogate this and have been since I turned out.
    you tell them mom
  2. by   nursbee04
    Quote from beth07
    Let me just clarify what a bsn is exactly. It is just like any other 4 year professional degree. The first two years are undergrad classes like english, chem, anatomy & physiology, micro, statistics, algebra, history, electives etc.. The last two years are strictly nursing. You begin with foundations, med surg, health assessment etc. and then move on with classes in psych, pedi, ob, critical care, community health etc.. So the last two years each 16 week semester you have your classroom time and clinical time. It really is a lot more clinical hours and I feel like it's been very worthwhile. Just my two cents.
    Let me clarify what an ADN is:
    First you do your general/core requirements (anat & phys, micro, english, chemistry, prob & stat, finite math, history, electives). This takes most people two years. Then you APPLY to the program. IF you get in, it is two years of strictly nursing. Foundations, medsurg, advanced medsurg (critical care), Peds, psych, OB, Mngmt, community health. Anyone else see the resemblence here?

    I don't think that making the BSN mandatory will solve the professionalism issue. I don't think that requiring the BSN will turn out better nurses. I can't point out to you the ADN's and BSN's on my floor, but I can tell you who the standout nurses are. Whether they have an ADN or BSN makes no difference, the point is they are all great nurses. THERE IS ROOM FOR BOTH.
  3. by   suzy253
    Originally posted by Mattsmom:
    And to someone who said diploma RN's were 'grandfathered' to get their associates degrees, you are misinformed. I remain a DIPLOMA RN and went to school 3 yrs.We graduated some of the best nurses in the state IMO. Our school closed down from pressure and lobbying from the academic snobs at the universities.

    I am working with more and more new new BSN's that simply have no clue how to function in real world facility nursing....and it amazes me how so many truly feel superior to me...a 28 some yr 'lowly' diploma nurse.....LOL. When the poop hits the fan they sure do yell loud for this lowly nurses' help.

    Ya can't treat people badly tho and expect camaraderie...this is why the dissention in the nursing ranks. The BSN academic snobs propogate this and have been since I turned out
    *********************************************
    You have said a mouthful my friend! *clap clap clap*. I've just finished my freshman year of a 3-year diploma program. Have no interest in obtaining a BSN. I recall a previous post about BSN where someone had a BSN grad not knowing how to insert an indwelling Foley....the BSN grad said 'well, I know the theory'. Duh. That sure helps. It also cracks me up.

    And with the BSN....all the courses before, arts, government, music, whatever. What's that all about????--for 3 YEARS!!! The last 2 years just starting foundations of nursing. Egads. We started clinicals after 6 weeks. I've inserted more Foley's than I can count; I've given meds, shots, IV's, suctioning, NG tubes and the list goes on and on. I'm sooooo happy to be in a diploma program where I'm getting the kind of education that I want...nursing.

    Thanks for letting me honor my diploma program and for letting me vent!
  4. by   NursesRmofun
    Quote from mattsmom81
    it is amusing to me how facilities and tptb love more education/letters after names...it makes them look better to have a highly educated group of employees after all.

    i've looked into my bsn several times and always get the same runaround. my diploma nursing courses and the university prereqs (obtained at a university not a community college) are always a problem and they want me to essentially repeat 90% of my education!!! now in my 28th year as a rn, critical care with my ccrn, why would i choose to go into debt again, waste my time repeating courses, and have my family suffer?? i chose not to as i don't wish to manage or move into msn type roles. i do agree in bs as entry level (like canada has done) but will draw the line if i am forced to return to school. what nonsense. i will retire and we will be short another experienced, practicing nurse. wonder how many nys nurses feel the same?

    and to someone who said diploma rn's were 'grandfathered' to get their associates degrees, you are misinformed. i remain a diploma rn and went to school 3 yrs.we graduated some of the best nurses in the state imo. our school closed down from pressure and lobbying from the academic snobs at the universities.

    i am working with more and more new new bsn's that simply have no clue how to function in real world facility nursing....and it amazes me how so many truly feel superior to me...a 28 some yr 'lowly' diploma nurse.....lol. when the poop hits the fan they sure do yell loud for this lowly nurses' help.

    ya can't treat people badly tho and expect camaraderie...this is why the dissention in the nursing ranks. the bsn academic snobs propogate this and have been since i turned out.
    i had heard that diploma nurses were *sort of* grandfathered in- only meaning that diploma nurses are not held to the current requirements for obtaining the credits in order to take the boards. that was my understanding.....and so it should be because diploma nurses that are rns already passed the boards....so, it only makes sense to not hold them to the current requirements. in the same way, if a bsn were required, i would think that rns that have aas/asns should obviously be grandfathered in because they have already passed the boards and are already rns.
    i have also heard that diploma nurses are very well educated/trained. i would never think any less of a diploma grad.
  5. by   Javin123
    I agree that there would be a major problem with shortages if the BSN was the only means to become a nurse. It is, however, the only way that the nursing profession can be validated. Doctors have specific criteria and so do attorneys. It's important to have continuity in nursing education.

    I began my career as a diploma nurse and I received a wonderful education. I still believe a 4 year program should be universal.
  6. by   kimmathis14
    "I tend to agree with this somewhat, but I think it should probably be a BSN requirement, not any bachelors. Hell, I could go get a bachelor's in home ecomonics and that would supposedly make me a better nurse?"


    Let's face it and ADN program is just a BSN with out all the general education classes. All things created equal it is a technical-skill based career. It doesn't matter BSN or another general bachelor's you are just taking another 2 years of "fuff" classes to show you are well rounded and can do the work. I already have a bachelor's and do not feel I need to earn a BSN to be an RN. I am thankful for the different avenues that I can take to be an nurse. It would be sad if they implemented the BSN requirement because it would turn away a lot of people who do not have the time and resources to pay for a BSN or another bachelor's degree.
  7. by   angel337
    Quote from kimmathis14
    Let's face it and ADN program is just a BSN with out all the general education classes. All things created equal it is a technical-skill based career. It doesn't matter BSN or another general bachelor's you are just taking another 2 years of "fuff" classes to show you are well rounded and can do the work. I already have a bachelor's and do not feel I need to earn a BSN to be an RN. I am thankful for the different avenues that I can take to be an nurse. It would be sad if they implemented the BSN requirement because it would turn away a lot of people who do not have the time and resources to pay for a BSN or another bachelor's degree.
    i disagree. being a rn is not just a technical career. it involves alot more than just doing tasks. i don't know what kind of nurse you are and its great that you have a bs already, but it saddens me to see that some rn's think a 4 year degree is too much. in case some people have forgotten..we have people lives in our hands. being a critical thinker is much more than a task. if a doctor orders k+ 40meq IV push are you just going to give it and kill the patient. i guess so...because after all we are just "technical" and following docs orders. i don't think my education was "fluff". i had pathophysiology, public health nursing, and other classes that are not offered in 2 year programs (i know this because i went to school in chicago and researched EVERY nursing program here). going to school for four years is not a big deal, especially when most adn nurses i know went to school for 3.5 years anyway. do all nurses have critical thinking skills? absolutely. you have to in order to survive in this field but why do we have to feel we don't deserve much better. it doesn't matter what degree you have whether it is a adn or bsn...a good nurse is a good nurse but we need to realize that 4 years of school is considered minimum for other professions so why shouldn't it be minimum for us? but isn't this the question we have been asking for years
  8. by   orrnlori
    Quote from kimmathis14
    Let's face it and ADN program is just a BSN with out all the general education classes. All things created equal it is a technical-skill based career. It doesn't matter BSN or another general bachelor's you are just taking another 2 years of "fuff" classes to show you are well rounded and can do the work. I already have a bachelor's and do not feel I need to earn a BSN to be an RN. I am thankful for the different avenues that I can take to be an nurse. It would be sad if they implemented the BSN requirement because it would turn away a lot of people who do not have the time and resources to pay for a BSN or another bachelor's degree.
    If anyone were to simply sit down and read several college catalogs they would see this is true. I've looked at at least a dozen BSN programs in several different states and this statement is exactly true. A BSN is simply more general education if we are talking about a "from scratch" BSN.

    What is so interesting to me is that I've had this discussion in the OR with several residents and attendings. And do you know what their opinion is? A bachelor's degree is a bachelor's degree. One resident stated he knows many residents who have their bachelors in history or art before applying to medical school, the resident I was talking to had his bachelor's degree in political science. Doctors DO NOT look down upon each other based on what bachelor's degree each has. Only in nursing is the "bachelor's" degree IN NURSING" so carried on about. A business person can have degrees in multiple areas to be considered for management. BA's in Liberal Arts are considered right now one of the most sought after degrees because they are considered general enough and broad enough to do most jobs. Nursing is it's own worst enemy when in comes to education.
  9. by   NurseJacqui
    Come on, people. Most institutions offer tuition reimbursement nowadays and for crying out loud, you will have TEN years to do it! I have never seen so much resistance to obtaining higher education!
  10. by   PeninsulaRN
    I agree, and frankly I'm disappointed at the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread. RNs are the least educated members of the healthcare team. I think it would do a lot to improve the solidarity and unity of nurses were there an entry level educational requirement such as a BSN (no more ADNs are just as good as BSNs and LPNs are just as good as RNs... ad nauseum).
    I'm not going to get into the argument of why a baccalaureate education is preferable to an associate's, that should be clear.
    Its a shame that nurses hold education in such low regard. I'm not saying that some ADN or diploma prepared nurses aren't great, competent, professional nurses... they are. However, I think the profession needs to move forward out of a blue collar, task-oriented hourly position into a salaried and professional one.
    But then, my views on salary vs hourly wages and unions vs non-unions are for another thread.
  11. by   Energizer Bunny
    It's because of other nurses that have BSN's that those that have ADN's are looked down upon. Grow up and realize that not everyone has the luxury of time, money, etc. to be able to get a BSN. There may be tuition reimbursement but when you have other HUGE factors in your life, taking that much money out on loans, etc. looks impossible.

    On second thought...you know what? You are all right that think BSN's are better. Those of us that are "only" going to get our ADN's are all losers that just want to get by with the "easiest" out. We're all a bunch of low life's that don't want to further our education or get anywhere in life. You're all right! There.
    Last edit by CNM2B on May 8, '04
  12. by   PeninsulaRN
    Meh, I don't buy that argument.
    Its because of the educational disparities that nurses take issue with each other. If there were but one entry level requirement, much of that would be obsolete. Whether an RN chose to go on to a master's or doctoral level of education would be an individual decision.
    It pains me to see people say "just don't mess with my money" or "I don't have time". This is your career, not a hobby. Continuing education is paramount to a healthcare provider. Drifting along with the status quo is fine, I suppose, if you want to continue giving mediocre care.
    Education should be worth the expense and effort, in and of itself, IMO. Arh, but apparently my opinion differs greatly from the majority here.
    Carry on.
  13. by   PeninsulaRN
    Quote from CNM2B
    On second thought...you know what? You are all right that think BSN's are better. Those of us that are "only" going to get our ADN's are all losers that just want to get by with the "easiest" out. We're all a bunch of low life's that don't want to further our education or get anywhere in life. You're all right! There.
    And so intelligent discussion ceases.

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