NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 4

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   studentrn621
    Quote from LKRN
    Everyone is getting in such an uproar! Why not require a BSN as an entry level for RNs?
    I agree. Why not?
  2. by   suzy253
    Quote from beth07
    Let me just clarify what a bsn is exactly. It is just like any other 4 year professional degree. The first two years are undergrad classes like english, chem, anatomy & physiology, micro, statistics, algebra, history, electives etc.. The last two years are strictly nursing. You begin with foundations, med surg, health assessment etc. and then move on with classes in psych, pedi, ob, critical care, community health etc.. So the last two years each 16 week semester you have your classroom time and clinical time. My week goes like this (I am about to graduate) Monday: Critical care class all morning. Management class in the afternoon. Tuesday and Wednesday: Critical care clinical in a cardiac ICU all day. Thursday: Community clinical at CPS all day. Friday: a class that teaches on the nurse practice act. It is done by a lawyer and includes ways nurses make a difference in the law making process, ways to avoid malpractice etc. So instead of two years including all your math, english and nursing like with a two year degree, it is divided. It really is a lot more clinical hours and I feel like it's been very worthwhile. Just my two cents.
    So the first two years are the undergrad classes...and the last two years you're just beginning the foundations, assessment, med surg, etc. Wow. I'm so glad I'm in a 3-year diploma program. Learned foundations, assessment, etc in the first 6 weeks. If you havent' taken any of the undergrad courses before, i.e physiology, anatomy, etc., they are interwoven into your curriculum..you take them as you're taking your nursing courses...and you don't start clinical until your 3rd year and you have more 'hands on?' Geez...we started clinicals within 6 weeks of our 3 year program. We learned the nurse practice act in our first semester already. Yep..I think diploma/hospital associated programs have the best clinical experience.
  3. by   angel337
    Quote from clickhere
    .


    [font='times new roman']the accelerated bsn program has to complete 128 credit hours to convey the bsn vs. 60-64 credit hours for adn. are you saying that these students took twice as many classes and learned less?



    what about the difficulty of the classes? i have taken classes at a university and several community colleges, and the difference in the quality and difficulty of courses at a university vs. a community college is noticeable.



    [font='times new roman']i almost fell asleep during the community college courses, because there was almost no academic rigor to the courses. the grading was easy, there were few writing assignments and they were short, and the tests required almost no critical thinking the answers to the tests were almost obvious. [font='times new roman']i think that it is obvious that the bsn education is far superior to the adn education.
    i agree. i did prereqs at community colleges, but did the bulk of my studies at a university and it is a big difference. i really enjoyed the classes i took at my university and you feel alot of self fufillment from receiving a well rounded education. i know it is difficult for nurses who have been out of school for years to go back and i think it is only fair that employers pay for their education in full and make it possible to obtain their degrees without sacrificing too much. where i work they have classes on site at the hospital so the nurses won't have to travel. so far the nurses that are completing their bsn love it.
  4. by   Sheri257
    Quote from clickhere
    The accelerated BSN program has to complete 128 credit hours to convey the BSN vs. 60-64 credit hours for ADN. Are you saying that these students took twice as many classes and learned less?

    What about the difficulty of the classes? I have taken classes at a university and several community colleges, and the difference in the QUALITY AND DIFFICULTY of courses at a university vs. a community college is noticeable.

    I almost fell asleep during the community college courses, because there was almost no academic rigor to the courses. The grading was easy, there were few writing assignments and they were short, and the tests required almost no critical thinking the answers to the tests were almost obvious. I think that it is obvious that the BSN education is far superior to the ADN education.
    Well, since you apparently didn't read the post you quoted, I'll restate the point. I'm saying that it also depends upon the individual ADN or BSN program. There are good ones and bad ones on either side.

    The BSN program in my area has a lousy NCLEX pass rate, 70 percent. That's barely meeting the state minimum to maintain accreditation and 15 percent below the state and national average. Not to mention, it's way below the ADN programs in the area, most of which have NCLEX pass rates in the '90s.

    Schools live or die by NCLEX pass rates. In this case, the additional credit hours don't seem to be doing much good. Not to mention, some hospitals don't like to hire their grads because the clinicals are lacking that particular program.

    There are certainly better BSN programs in the state, but this is not one of them. In this particular case, logging additional credit hours on an acclerated schedule does not always translate into better education.

    I'm not trying to say that one is necessarily better than the other. I'm saying that you can't always generalize, and that it really depends upon the individual program.

    :spin:
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Apr 21, '04
  5. by   Energizer Bunny
    Quote from lizz
    I'm not trying to say that one is necessarily better than the other. I'm saying that you can't always generalize, and that it really depends upon the individual program.

    :spin:
    Thanks for this Lizz...you said what I wanted to say but was unsure of how to go about it!
  6. by   orrnlori
    Quote from lizz
    Well, since you apparently didn't read the post you quoted, I'll restate the point. I'm saying that it also depends upon the individual ADN or BSN program. There are good ones and bad ones on either side.

    The BSN program in my area has a lousy NCLEX pass rate, 70 percent. That's barely meeting the state minimum to maintain accreditation and 15 percent below the state and national average. Not to mention, it's way below the ADN programs in the area, most of which have NCLEX pass rates in the '90s.

    Schools live or die by NCLEX pass rates. In this case, the additional credit hours don't seem to be doing much good. Not to mention, some hospitals don't like to hire their grads because the clinicals are lacking that particular program.

    There are certainly better BSN programs in the state, but this is not one of them. In this particular case, logging additional credit hours on an acclerated schedule does not always translate into better education.

    I'm not trying to say that one is necessarily better than the other. I'm saying that you can't always generalize, and that it really depends upon the individual program.

    :spin:
    Hi Lizz - I agree with you. Many times when comparing some BSN programs to others you'll see just what you described. I've always thought the reason was that it was the attitude of the program (instructors) toward the profession. There are some programs so wrapped up in the "profession" they forget the purpose of the education. There are bunny classes in all academics whether bachelor's or associate's just as there are killer classes in both. The "rigor" argument will surface whenever their are people who have succumbed to the mantra that only "some" are good enough to be in their rank. It's a generalization you would think most thoughtful people wouldn't make. But when you get out of school, you'll see if often.

    Until education is standardized (which it never will be due to the politics of the schools themselves in which the programs exist) you will always see this "my school is better than yours" agrument. I always think of frat boys with a can of beer in their hands when I read this stuff (Is not! Is too! Is not! Is too!) It's silly and divides the profession. The fact of the matter is, that when you hit the floor, a lot of what's floated as general well roundedness by the education system matters not. It simply makes the colleges and universities more money. As someone finishing up a bachelor's degree and an applicant to a master's program, I can say that the education is fine, but it really has little to do with being a working nurse. I guess I could lecture a patient on the sociological differences between men and women, or the meaning of standard deviations of a particular research, however, to the sick patient, well, he just wants the nurse to know what she's doing.

    When it comes down to it, the accelerated BSN prorams are basically a way for colleges to pump more nurses into the system, and not always better trained nurses. The very best trained nurses you will ever meet are the diploma nurses. Talk about a real education in nursing.
  7. by   Sheri257
    Quote from orrnlori
    Until education is standardized (which it never will be due to the politics of the schools themselves in which the programs exist) you will always see this "my school is better than yours" agrument.
    This is absolutely so true. You are so right. Some ADN programs have pre-req requirements that rival bachelor's degrees. Others don't. The list goes on and on.

    There is no set standard by which you can judge one over the other, because all of the standards are different. Do you judge by NCLEX pass rates? Do you judge by credit hours? Clinicals? Who knows what the best criteria is? In that sense, the argument is futile, but will probably continue regardless.

    BTW, I don't think my school is all that great. I'm not trying to argue that at all. In fact, my school is probably about average. But I'll take it over the above mentioned BSN program. That low NCLEX pass rate scares the hell outta me, which is why I chose ADN.

    :chuckle
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Apr 21, '04
  8. by   orrnlori
    The low rate of pass should scare you. There are huge deficiencies in that program right now if it's pass rate is 70%. It will tighten up it's ship or it will be lost when the CCNE comes down on it, which will happen.
  9. by   JMP
    I graduated from a three year diploma RN program three years ago and will finish my BSN this December. I live and work in Ontario, Canada. I do not "need" my BSN to work. I wanted it. However, since I graduated from a diploma program and I am finishing up my BSN I wanted to comment.

    The oppression in nursing is strong....past and certainly present. The fact that this "argument" about what is better and why is definite proof we need to standardize the programs....... in my opinion. Oppression creates horizontal violence and most nurses practice it without ever knowing or understanding what it is and more importantly why it is a problem. We need to first accept that we are all coming from diffferent programs, but going to the same place....professional practice.

    Having a BSN for entry to pratice only means that now, as nurses we are on the same footing going into practice as dietians, pharmacists, OT, PT, and many other professionals who ALL require a basic degree to practice. Nothing wrong with it. It just means standardization.

    The nursing shortage has been created by hositle, oppressive workplaces that burn out nurses....... there are lots of nurses out there, but they are not practicing. The answer is creating positive, empowering enviroments where nurses can learn and grow....education is one of the ways to create these enviroments.

    JMP
  10. by   LKRN
    To receive the respect we deserve, we need to develop a more educated work force. Are you aware entry level for an animal care technician is an associate's degree plus 20 continuing education credits in a 2-year licensure period? We require our educators, engineers, and accountants to have a minimum of a baccalaureate education and our nurses are on the same educational level as animal care technicians! This does not seem right to me.



    :angryfire A state should not be determining entry-level education or a curriculum for any profession! I believe members of a profession should be addressing the profession's educational curriculum and entry-level education. If you really want to block change or make change, get involved with your state or local chapter of the American Nurses Association.
  11. by   orrnlori
    Quote from LKRN
    To receive the respect we deserve, we need to develop a more educated work force. Are you aware entry level for an animal care technician is an associate's degree plus 20 continuing education credits in a 2-year licensure period? We require our educators, engineers, and accountants to have a minimum of a baccalaureate education and our nurses are on the same educational level as animal care technicians! This does not seem right to me.



    :angryfire A state should not be determining entry-level education or a curriculum for any profession! I believe members of a profession should be addressing the profession's educational curriculum and entry-level education. If you really want to block change or make change, get involved with your state or local chapter of the American Nurses Association.
    The ANA is the last place I would look for guidance in anything having to do with nursing. The very fact that their membership is made up of only 5-7% of working nurses should tell you that the population of nurses does not feel they are represented by the ANA. Anytime an organization claims they represent a profession, they should claim more members within the population of workers than does the ANA. There's a definate problem here but the ANA is not the answer. Sorry, my opinion, and I guess the opinion of 93-95% of the working nurses must agree.
  12. by   Sheri257
    Quote from LKRN
    To receive the respect we deserve, we need to develop a more educated work force. Are you aware entry level for an animal care technician is an associate's degree plus 20 continuing education credits in a 2-year licensure period? We require our educators, engineers, and accountants to have a minimum of a baccalaureate education and our nurses are on the same educational level as animal care technicians! This does not seem right to me.
    Uh ... my brother is an accountant. Handles the books for a multi-million dollar corporation. He doesn't even have his CPA.

    As far as respect, nurses just scored highest (as usual) in the annual Gallup poll measuring the public's perception of various professions. And nurses have scored high for several years. I believe the only profession that rated higher than nurses in recent years were firefighters during the post 9-11 tragedy. But, just this year, nurses were number one, once again.

    Generally, I agree that more education is better. But what KIND of education are we talking about here? You really think an ADN is the equivalent of some associate's degree in animal care? For crying out loud. It's not even close.

    I'd like to know how many animal care technicians could make it through an ADN program. Hell, I'd like to see how many of them could even make it through pre-reqs. :chuckle

    Talk about comparing apples and oranges. Once again, it's not always about titles. It's a little more complicated than that.

    Last edit by Sheri257 on Apr 21, '04
  13. by   orrnlori
    Quote from lizz
    Uh ... my brother is an accountant. Handles the books for a multi-million dollar corporation. He doesn't even have his CPA.

    As far as respect, nurses just scored highest (as usual) in the annual Gallup poll measuring the public's perception of various professions. And nurses have scored high for several years. I believe the only profession that rated higher than nurses in recent years were firefighters during the post 9-11 tragedy. But, just this year, nurses were number one, once again.

    Generally, I agree that more education is better. But what KIND of education are we talking about here? You really think an ADN is the equivalent of some associate's degree in animal care? For crying out loud. It's not even close.

    I'd like to know how many animal care technicians could make it through an ADN program. Hell, I'd like to see how many of them could even make it through pre-reqs. :chuckle

    Talk about comparing apples and oranges. Once again, it's not always about titles. It's a little more complicated than that.

    Gosh, I couldn't have said it better Liz.

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