NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[VivaLasViejas, ASN, RN]

I can't imagine any self-respecting ADN taking this one lying down. I know this for sure, if anyone tried to "downgrade" me to LPN after years of experience as an RN, they'd have one hell of a fight on their hands!! :angryfire I don't care how many good reasons there are to make a BSN the entry level degree for registered nurses: you don't deprive someone of their title or their livelihood because they're too old, don't have the time, have been out of school too long, or can't afford to pursue a four-year degree.

Frankly, I'd be happy to go back for a bachelor's if someone would a) finance the extra two years, b) support my family while I do it, and c) explain to me why I need statistics and calculus to function at the bedside as a staff RN.

'Nuff said. :stone

[oramar]

This is what I am thinking, it is the implied insult to non BSN nurse in the proposed law that gets everyone upset. Why in the world do they have to insist that existing RNs need futher schooling. If they must pass a law like this it they need to set a date in the future like 20 years. Write a law that states after that date every one coming out of nursing school has to be coming out of BSN program. Under no circumstances should they tamper with the livelyhood of anyone that graduates from non BSN program before that date. You just can't go retro

and try to force people that have been out of the school for many years back into college, it just won't fly. They have been trying to do this in PA for years and years and it just never happens because the people who try to write these laws are not realistic. None of this affects me in anyway, I have maybe 5 years left to work and that is on a very casual basis and none of these laws have a chance of passing for years and years.

[TinyNurse, RN]

I'm a new adn grad and started a bsn program this fall............ my FIRST day, i mean first hour in class the instructor told the class that ADNs were fading out, and soon it would be all bsn nurses............( i just graduated adn, and wanted to cry, instead i dropped the program and went full force into adn nursing) I live in Ohio.

[Sheri257]

A good BSN program is NOT lacking in hands on. We actually have more clinical hours than other programs. I'm not at all trying to put down people who have worked hard for their degree, but two more years is nothing to sneeze at. It is hard work. Glad to be here!:)

Well, that raises another question. BSNs don't always take two extra years. What about all of these acclerated BSNs that take only one year? Why should that count and not a two year ADN? In a lot of these programs, all you need is another bachelor's in some other unrelated field. There's no previous nursing education.

As far as BSN clinicals, you may be right about your particular program. But the BSN program in my area is lacking in clinicals, and it's well known in the medical community. And, guess what? It's an accelerated BSN that doesn't even require another bachelor's. They squeeze everything into seven semesters.

I'm actually not arguing that one is better than the other. I'm saying that each individual program is so different that you can't say for sure what's better on a wide scale.

There are good and bad ADN programs, just as there are good and bad BSN programs everywhere. But the BSN program in my area has a 70 percent pass rate, 15-20 percent less than the other four ADN programs in the area and the national average.

Should I be forced into a program with a 70 percent NCLEX pass rate just because it's a BSN? Is that better and actually reaching a higher professional standard? A program where students fail the NCLEX in greater numbers?

Uh ... I don't think so.

[beth07]

Well, that raises another question. BSNs don't always take two extra years. What about all of these acclerated BSNs that take only one year? Why should that count and not a two year ADN? In a lot of these programs, all you need is another bachelor's in some other unrelated field. There's no previous nursing education.

As far as BSN clinicals, you may be right about your particular program. But the BSN program in my area is lacking in clinicals, and it's well known in the medical community. And, guess what? It's an accelerated BSN that doesn't even require another bachelor's. They squeeze everything into seven semesters.

I'm actually not arguing that one is better than the other. I'm saying that each individual program is so different that you can't say for sure what's better on a wide scale.

There are good and bad ADN programs, just as there are good and bad BSN programs everywhere. But the BSN program in my area has a 70 percent pass rate, 15-20 percent less than the other four ADN programs in the area and the national average.

Should I be forced into a program with a 70 percent NCLEX pass rate just because it's a BSN? Is that better and actually reaching a higher professional standard? A program where students fail the NCLEX in greater numbers?

Uh ... I don't think so.

I agree with you, and I actually disagree with what is being proposed in NY. I do think a BSN should be the requirement, just my opinion if we want to be seen as professionals, however, I think going retroactive is counterproductive and unfair to those whose experience already equals a BSN. I much prefer the idea of "grandfathering" those nurses in.

[clickhere]

well, that raises another question. bsns don't always take two extra years. what about all of these acclerated bsns that take only one year? why should that count and not a two year adn? in a lot of these programs, all you need is another bachelor's in some other unrelated field. there's no previous nursing education.

as far as bsn clinicals, you may be right about your particular program. but the bsn program in my area is lacking in clinicals, and it's well known in the medical community. and, guess what? it's an accelerated bsn that doesn't even require another bachelor's. they squeeze everything into seven semesters.

i'm actually not arguing that one is better than the other. i'm saying that each individual program is so different that you can't say for sure what's better on a wide scale.

there are good and bad adn programs, just as there are good and bad bsn programs everywhere. but the bsn program in my area has a 70 percent pass rate, 15-20 percent less than the other four adn programs in the area and the national average.

should i be forced into a program with a 70 percent nclex pass rate just because it's a bsn? is that better and actually reaching a higher professional standard? a program where students fail the nclex in greater numbers?

uh ... i don't think so.

.

the accelerated bsn program has to complete 128 credit hours to convey the bsn vs. 60-64 credit hours for adn. are you saying that these students took twice as many classes and learned less?

what about the difficulty of the classes? i have taken classes at a university and several community colleges, and the difference in the quality and difficulty of courses at a university vs. a community college is noticeable.

i almost fell asleep during the community college courses, because there was almost no academic rigor to the courses. the grading was easy, there were few writing assignments and they were short, and the tests required almost no critical thinking the answers to the tests were almost obvious. i think that it is obvious that the bsn education is far superior to the adn education.

[Sheri257]

I agree with you, and I actually disagree with what is being proposed in NY. I do think a BSN should be the requirement, just my opinion if we want to be seen as professionals, however, I think going retroactive is counterproductive and unfair to those whose experience already equals a BSN. I much prefer the idea of "grandfathering" those nurses in.

Actually, I just realized that I mistyped the number of semesters in the BSN program that I was referring to. It's not seven semesters, it's actually five. Two and a half years.

I'm not opposed to the BSN requirement, per se. I'm just wondering what a BSN is anymore. If it's the four full years, then yes, that's probably a good idea. But what kind of quality of education are we talking about if it's crammed into two and half or, even, just one year? How much additional clinical experience and education can you possibly obtain in that time frame? How can you be sure that certain things (like NCLEX pass rates and clinicals) aren't falling by the wayside? (Which is what I suspect in the above mentioned program.)

You can bet that if BSNs become a requirement, these accelerated programs, which are already popular, will probably become even more common. At that point, if you're able to knock out a BSN in one year, what are we really talking about? Is it really more education and training? Or, are we doing this for a fancier title? Because that may be all it boils down to in the end.

[beth07]

Let me just clarify what a bsn is exactly. It is just like any other 4 year professional degree. The first two years are undergrad classes like english, chem, anatomy & physiology, micro, statistics, algebra, history, electives etc.. The last two years are strictly nursing. You begin with foundations, med surg, health assessment etc. and then move on with classes in psych, pedi, ob, critical care, community health etc.. So the last two years each 16 week semester you have your classroom time and clinical time. My week goes like this (I am about to graduate) Monday: Critical care class all morning. Management class in the afternoon. Tuesday and Wednesday: Critical care clinical in a cardiac ICU all day. Thursday: Community clinical at CPS all day. Friday: a class that teaches on the nurse practice act. It is done by a lawyer and includes ways nurses make a difference in the law making process, ways to avoid malpractice etc. So instead of two years including all your math, english and nursing like with a two year degree, it is divided. It really is a lot more clinical hours and I feel like it's been very worthwhile. Just my two cents.

[Alnamvet]

Let me just clarify what a bsn is exactly. It is just like any other 4 year professional degree. The first two years are undergrad classes like english, chem, anatomy & physiology, micro, statistics, algebra, history, electives etc.. The last two years are strictly nursing. You begin with foundations, med surg, health assessment etc. and then move on with classes in psych, pedi, ob, critical care, community health etc.. So the last two years each 16 week semester you have your classroom time and clinical time. My week goes like this (I am about to graduate) Monday: Critical care class all morning. Management class in the afternoon. Tuesday and Wednesday: Critical care clinical in a cardiac ICU all day. Thursday: Community clinical at CPS all day. Friday: a class that teaches on the nurse practice act. It is done by a lawyer and includes ways nurses make a difference in the law making process, ways to avoid malpractice etc. So instead of two years including all your math, english and nursing like with a two year degree, it is divided. It really is a lot more clinical hours and I feel like it's been very worthwhile. Just my two cents.

Then you have the BA, BS, BSW, BPsy, BBA types who go to a 2 year (or 1 year accelerated ASN) program who spends on average of 40 hours per week in clinicals and 16+ hours per week didactic for 50 weeks...same same in my book. When I was a young Naval Officer fresh from Officer candidate school, I used to be amused by the ring knockers from the Naval Academy who thought they were the creme de la creme by virtue of their commissioning source...my reply to these egomaniacs was that it was apparent to me that the Navy could make me an officer in four months, where the Academy pukes took four years to achieve the same goal. BTW, the overwhelming majority of Admirals in the Navy in the last 50 years did NOT come from the Naval Academy. :)

[oramar]

my FIRST day, i mean first hour in class the instructor told the class that ADNs were fading out, and soon it would be all bsn nurses...

I have reported this disconnect between academia and the real world in other post on this subject. It is a rhetoric that educators push at people all the time. The are all so oblivious to how badly they alienate the bulk of nurses. When I went to work on my BSN it was almost like the instructors were reading from a script.

[orrnlori, RN]

You know, I've been reading here for weeks about this issue of ADN and BSN. Part of the reason there is no concensus among us is that no two programs are even close to being similar. So, here's BSN program #1, pre-reqs are strongly into literature, sociology, and statistics. Here's BSN program #2, it has lots of sciences, chemistry, physio, biology, A&P. Here's BSN program #3, it's got two religion classes and ethics as well as other cross cultural requirements in addition to the sciences. There you have it folks. Until the educators get there act together to determine what is basic, you are always going to have these arguments. In my area of the woods, the from scratch BSN and the from scratch AAS have the exact same number of nursing hours. The sole difference is the liberal arts. My AAS took 80 hours to complete, but I read of programs taking 60 - 66 hours. We are still both ADN's.

And the point made about accelerated programs is excellent. A BS plus 12 to 18 months and you are out with a BSN. This is all semantics.

And one other thing, one of the biggest reasons this will not come to pass will be the community colleges will not allow it unless the state govenments are willing to pad their programs well with the money that will be lost if the associate programs are discarded. There's so much more to all of this than just a group of legislators having a TIA and getting confused.

[NursesRmofun, ASN, RN]

Well, well now...that will motivate my *ss! LOL