Education of nurses - page 5
Now I know this may upset some but... I think that all nurses should be BSN prepared at minimum, and all LPN, ASN, and diploma programs should be eradicated. My reasoning for this? How many other fields can say they are... Read More
- 0May 20, '12 by CarryThatWeightQuote from Belle MorteYes, I agree. I am an ADN nurse that just graduated with a BSN. I was pretty much pushed into getting my BSN because I couldn't get into acute care without it. I know people are saying that's only in certain areas of the country, but I applied in many states. Having an ADN was about akin to leprosy, despite prior experience, 4.0, honors, etc. For that reason, I do think it would be better to have a standard entry point for nursing--for the future. No one's license should be taken away, but we should head that direction for new nurses. It is sad and disheartening to work your butt off in nursing school and get good grades, only to be told repeatedly that your degree is not good enough.it's already happening, by the hospitals that are hiring BSN nurses only....
I do understand and agree with what some nurses are saying on here... Experience is really so much more useful than classroom education. I know some really smart diploma and ADN nurses and some really dumb BSN and MSN's! I think that goes for all professions, though.
- 3May 20, '12 by realnursealso/LPNJust an FYI, a local hospital for a while was claiming bragging rites, because they were becoming a magnet hospital. My mother fell down on Monday and fractured her hip. She was admitted to the above hospital. When she was given a room on a floor , as well as seeing RN's, guess what else I saw on name badges passing meds, doing admissions..............LPN's! The next day my dad and I were eating lunch in the cafeteria and I struck up a conversation with a staff member. I said I was going to share our conversation on allnurses. I asked about the "Magnet" status. She told me they lost it, the all BSN THING WAS UNATTAINABLE! LPN's are hired and utilized all the time all over the hospital. I have mentioned my area many times on allnurses. This hospital is in Syracuse, NY. When classes graduate, yes, new grads, they get a write up in our local paper. The last article said, and I quote, "All of us have jobs." This is the nursing school affliated with the hospital my mom was in. ADN, LPN, BSN, jobs are all plentiful in Syracuse, NY. We have St. Joseph's, Crouse Irving, Upstate Medical Center, and Community General, which is now affliated with Upstate. Upstate is a Level 1 Trauma Center. So my point is, if you need a job, try Syracuse, NY, and apply to one of the hospitals here. They even advertize for GN's. I applaud you if you have a BSN, but I think we all have room for each other, and none of us should be done away with.
- 0Quote from AltraMy assertion of 98% was an overreaching observation meant to illustrate a point, not be a literal translation of academic program construction. I would assert however that the priority in ADN and diploma programs is the training of a competent clinical nurse. Other education courses may be present but the vast majority, I am willing to say at least >80% of the classes, are designed to improve clinical practice directly.
If you look at curricula of ADN/ASN and diploma programs, does your assertion that they are "98% clinical" hold true?
- 0Quote from OCNRN63Please do not take offense from the "minimally competent nurse" statement, it was not meant as an insult. Most programs have the primary goal of educating students to pass NCLEX, that is in fact the entire point is it not? The NCLEX is not a test designed to identify excellent or even good nurses, it's only function is to assess if an applicant is minimally competent.
"Minimally functional clinical nurse"? Yeah, that's right. I'm just an automaton who says "Yes, Doctor," then toddles off to perform the task. I don't think about the hows, whys and wherefores.
We did learn nursing history, including all those theorists like Jean Watson, Hildegard Peplau, etc. We learned about professional ethics. We had a leadership rotation at the end of our senior year when we were expected to act as a staff nurse, with all the responsibilities and the same patient load as other staff. We learned that education is important.
If my education was so lacking, why was I able to be certified in 5 different specialties over the course of my career?
I'm very proud to have graduated from a highly regarded diploma program. Years ago, docs would say they could tell when a nurse had graduated from "XYZ program," because they were head and shoulders above the other programs.
I am sure you did learn some history and had some leadership education in your ADN or diploma program, are you saying that you received an equal amount of education in your ADN/diploma as you did in your BSN program?
- 0Quote from Esme12My statement was a response to a suggestion that the nursing SOP has been somewhat limited as of late, I am glad that you agree with me.
I was intubating patients and drawing abgs without a BSN in the 1980"s.....The degree dose not delegate what you can do until you get into advanced degrees. Paramedics intubate. The ability/skill to intubate is governed not by the state nurse practice acts but by facility policy and job description. When I think of the stuff I did as a flight nurse with on the job training.....I Am Honored to have had such an opportunity and education on the job. A 12 lead EKG doesn't require a college degree. I have lived through this acceleration of bedside practice to the responsibilities that are now required. It has been an amazing ride and career. As technology has grown so has the practice of nursing......we had to keep up to care for these patients that were receiving such complicated treatments and interventions.
Many patients that have been saved by TPA/thrombolytics were saved by nurses that probably didn't have a BSN. Those first open hearts were cared for diploma nurses.I remember the first time I hung the new drug Tridil (IV nitro).....we were petrified to drop it for fear it would blowup..... Intra-arterial streptokinase. Intracoronary urokinase. angioplasty......were all probably performed by nurses without their BSN. I had seen the eradication of the common diagnosis of Ventricular aneurysm due to the aggressive intervention of cardiology and the acute MI. I've seen the beginning of the ck-mb bands to troponin and BNP. I remember when we kept acute MI's on bedrest for days. and the were hospitalized for weeks. Many of these patient were sucessfully cared for by nurses that probably didn't have their BSN.
You need to know where you have been to know where you are going.......
As I have stated before, a BSN does not, nor was it designed to, make a nurse a better CLINICAL nurse. There are two educational programs, clinical and professional. The BSN program is longer because it adds more of the professional classes to the traditional ADN programs, that is all. Ceteris paribus, a BSN graduate and a ADN graduate have about the same CLINICAL education. When it comes to the professional skills, the BSN graduate has the advantage.
- 1Quote from kidsLike I have said before, BSN programs are not goal orientated to improve CLINICAL performance, they are designed to improve PROFESSIONAL performance.I learned (and more importantly learned to apply) those concepts in my ADN program.
Tell me, how does viewing nursing an a more "global" manner enhance bedside nursing?
Please, give me an practical application of the concept in bedside nursing. My BSN instructors couldn't do it yet it was one of the buzz words/phrases in their glossy program brochure.
I walked INTO my BSN program with all of those skills as I had walked OUT of my AND program with them 17 years earlier.
And since it will probably come up...I graduated from a community college in the Pac NW in 1990 that was no different than any other CC program in the state. My BSN came from a well regarded college, where I graduated with a near 4.0. While it's certainly possible I missed the "point" of my BSN program or attended a less than great school, the multiple MSN programs I've been accepted into make me inclined to disagree.
I do agree that standardized education and a standardized level of entry needs to be defined but at this point believe that good ADN programs would fill that need more than adequately. There are many professions (and I'm not using the lay term) for which an Associates is entry level. I don't believe making the BSN the standard for entry does anything but create additional financial burden for those who want to enter the field. Placing nursing education out of reach of the 'masses' and limits the supply, thereby creating some job security for already working nurses, then again, perhaps that is the point.
I apologize that your BSN program did not provide you with any useful skills, it must have been boring for you.
When considering expense I would strongly advise you to look at the statistics educational program length, how long it actually takes a student to finish the program. Traditional ADN programs are anywhere from 16 to 24 months long, plus an additional 1 to 2 years of prerequisite courses. In my area of the country the average time it takes to complete an ADN is 4-5 years when prerequisites are included. A traditional BSN program take 4-5 years to complete in comparison.
- 0May 21, '12 by jelly221,RNQuote from Asystole RNThis sounds spot-on from my experiences.Can I ask where you received your diploma? I'm always curious to find out where these facilities are, I think it is actually pretty neat.
Your idea has been proposed before but the problem is that there currently are not enough BSN programs to put out enough RNs to meet demand. The problem is not that programs do not want to open to meet demand but there simply are not enough instructors nor clinical sites. The NLN maintains statistics on this and they are very interesting.
If you think about it, you need someone with a great deal of education and experience to adequately train nurses. Those nurses that meet the criteria are worth a ton of money in the non-academic world, it is not easy to recruit someone to take a pay cut.
Instead of making a hard deadline the powers that be are increasing funding and grants to BSN level programs to help them recruit and develop larger nursing programs. The idea is to make a slow transition using market incentives such as Magnet to increase the demand for BSN nurses and slowly build up the BSN programs to cope. If the plan works well no one will even see the transition, just one day they will looking around and not see any ASN nurses.
- 1May 22, '12 by jelly221,RNQuote from Asystole RNI agree with this post, except that I'm not sure that it's the BSN that makes the difference. It seems that personal characteristics would determine a person's conduct and professionalism in the workplace as significantly as taking a few extra courses in college. Sure, maybe those "professionally-minded" people gravitate towards BSN programs due to a probable respect for and love of education & learning.I can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately I think you missed the point of a BSN. What I think most nurses miss is that nursing education is divided into two very distinct areas of study; clinical education and professional development.
That's just one of my personal theories based on my limited experience. Background: I graduated from an ADN program 6/11, have been working on a cardiac DOU for 7 mos, am in an MSN program at a well-known school in LA, am moving to CVICU this summer, and have a BS in music from before my ADN. I LOVE education and am all for it. I encourage all of my co-workers and nursing friends to further their education as soon as possible.
Quote from Asystole RNI feel that I (and many of my classmates, several of whom I now work with) walked away from our ADN program with these concepts and more. Perhaps that has more to do with our personal characteristics, though, and how much we put into our program and expected to get out of it.The BSN level of education goes beyond the clinical education and introduces concepts such as statistics, economics, leadership, research, and the like. These "fluff" classes help to develop you professionally, they allow you to view nursing in a more global manner. If you received a quality education you should have walked away from the program with some concept of leadership, organizational structure, professional duty, maybe some nursing history, the ability to read a study and understand the statistical significance, and the ability to understand why education is important.
Quote from Asystole RNI'm not sure about ALL of the studies, but one of the first studies on BSN v. ADN actually has some serious design flaws. I'll look for the reference tomorrow when I'm not fried afte work. =)You might not think that higher educational improves a nurse's performance but the studies prove that it actually does make a difference.
- 0May 22, '12 by jelly221,RNQuote from njmomstudentHa we kinda said the same thing, but if I'd read your post before I wrote mine, I would've just said EXACTLY!!!!I don't think an ADN says anything about a person. Afterall, I just finished my ADN, however I also hold a BS in biology/animal science. I have had statistics and probably more science than any BSN prepared student. I have performed my own research, and have used all of my previous education towards my ADN. With that being said, I am going straight to a MSN program so I will have an easier time finding jobs later down the road, not because it will increase my clinical abilities and critical thinking skills. My ADN program kicked our butts, and we are better nurses for it.
You can also go the route of letting students graduate these programs that shouldn't. Many BSN's that work at our hospital only have one patient thier whole entire clinical. I cannot tell you how many I have seen DANGEROUSLY let off of orientation and had no idea (literally no clue) about normal urine or lab levels. Every program lets people graduate that shouldn't in my opinion, whether they are ADN or BSN. What about the age of people graduating and thier maturity factor?? Like another poster said, actually I'll go even further, I'd rather let my 3 year old care for my life than some nurses I've encountered. I honestly think it depends more on the person and their desire to learn and take their responsibilities seriously than where they've graduated from with what degree.