BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it. - page 7

While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10... Read More

  1. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    3
    Except for periods around WWII there really hasn't been a nursing "shortage" in modern history. Am willing to bet any one of us could then and now go through state BON listings of RNs and find a vast supply of nurses with vaild licences without restrictions. What there has been a shortage of is nurses and or females willing to put up with the nonesense that facilities were pleased to call working conditions.

    Marriage was the traditional way to leave the profession at least full time, but most kept their licenses active "just in case" though a good number simply let them lapse and thus closed the doors for good. However when circumstances required those with vaild licenses could and did come flooding back to the floors, the recent crush of experienced nurses who returned to work in light of the recent economic crisis proves this.

    Yet for all the government wailing about a shortage of nurses they continue to drink the Kool-Aide poured out by hospital systems. I for one would love Congress to hold hearings and the DOL get involved looking into the working conditions, job actions and other tricks facilities play with nursing staff.

    For all this talk about modern times and nursing being a *Profession* far as things are in most places you'd swear we were living during the Eisenhower administration.

    Nurses are still treated like a pack of silly women that need to be lead and managed. Worse the ones you'd think would be in their corner (supervisors, nursing service administrators and management) are right up there twisting the screws. Back in the day when head nurses, supervisors and DONs rose up through the ranks from the floors most were at least fair because they understood where you were coming from.
    mya612, nursel56, and redhead_NURSE98! like this.
  2. Visit  BrandonLPN profile page
    0
    Well, I wouldn't say there's *no* professional incentive to getting a BSN over ADN. Your BSN will open more doors, especially in the long run. But, for many, it's not enough to justify all the extra time and tuition costs. Particularly if a BSN makes about the same as a ADN. The only thing that justifies more pay and more "prestige" (or whatever) is an expanded scope of practice.
  3. Visit  BrandonLPN profile page
    0
    Quote from Seas
    I believe in getting BSN as entry. Research shows that death rates are lower for the patients who were taken care by BSN or higher educated nurses. I have read this on my books. Plus, BSN is considered to be what makes you a "professional".
    You know, everyone keeps mentioning these "studies" that could very well be flawed. Hospitals with a higher percentage of BSNs ALSO tend to be the larger, metropolitan ones that have all the best equipment and (more importantly) access to doctors who are specialists in their field. And even with this HUGE bias, the difference in outcome rates is negligible, less than 1%..... does *anyone* have any first hand, anecdotal experiences that actually demonstrated to them that the ADNs they work with are less prepared than the BSNs they work with???
  4. Visit  BrandonLPN profile page
    1
    Quote from Anoetos
    My BSN is useless.GotchaSooo tired of this discussion
    Who said your BSN is useless? It enabled you to sit for the NCLEX and become a registered nurse. And if you want to go on to advanced practice, of course it's a plus to have a BSN over ADN. But, at the bedside RN level, I don't think it *necessarily* makes you a better nurse. Maybe you're a better nurse than the ADN working next to you..... and maybe you're not.....
    redhead_NURSE98! likes this.
  5. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    0
    Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSED
    ."[/U]

    I say this because, "So what if those other professionals all have to have a Bachelor degree as an entry requirement." This is because the education and skills covered in those Bachelor degree programs in their entirety are necessary to do the job. But if there is decade upon decade of evidence telling us that ADN grads can carry out the job as well as (or for the sake of argument, in the ballpark of) BSN grads, then the entirety of a BSN curriculum is obviously NOT the necessary entry requirement of the field. You argue that Nurses should get a mandatory BSN for pretty much no other reason than because "They have it, why shouldn't Nurses have it?" I mean if that's the case, why not make a Triple Doctorate the entry level requirement with a "Nobel in 10" to follow as a condition of continued employment? That'll sure show those other professions how seriously they should take Nursing!

    BTW, If you are paid hourly, you are a wage earner, It doesn't matter what your employer or anyone else calls it. Salary is a yearly base pay.

    Also, I'd like to point out that this post could be taken a bit as an insult for the recipient, so let me add that that is not my intention, but as I lack the ability to get my point across in any other way this is the best I could do.
    First, I'm not insulted.

    Secondly, I didn't argue that there should be a mandatory BSN. In fact, I said, "I don't care what path anyone chooses" or something close to that. I'm just saying, it's useless to advocate for more wages, more respect, or more anything without raising any expectations on the nurse's end. You see nurses saying all the time, "Why should BSN prepared nurses get paid more when they do the exact same job?" Well, why should any nurse get paid more than what they've been settling for when they have the exact same standards? It's the whole, "you have to give a little to get a little" concept.

    Finally, I know the difference between wages and salary very well. That's exactly why I said wage (not salary) because nurses, while wanting to be "professionals," get paid wages, while almost every other profession you can point a finger at gets a salary. Of course, most salary positions employ people with a bachelor's degree.
  6. Visit  MedChica profile page
    0
    A BSN probably should be the minimum point of entry, I'd agree.
    Personally, I'm just pursuing a BSN because I'll probably want to go 'Advanced Practice'. It's nice to have options.
    I'm going ADN -> BSN. The cheapest, but longest route.

    If I didn't have such plans, I wouldn't think about getting a bachelor's. Why would I assume extra debt when I'm not going to be paid any more than ADN or diploma-prepared nurses?
  7. Visit  PRICHARILLAisMISSED profile page
    2
    Quote from MedChica
    A BSN probably should be the minimum point of entry, I'd agree.
    Personally, I'm just pursuing a BSN because I'll probably want to go 'Advanced Practice'. It's nice to have options.
    I'm going ADN -> BSN. The cheapest, but longest route.

    If I didn't have such plans, I wouldn't think about getting a bachelor's. Why would I assume extra debt when I'm not going to be paid any more than ADN or diploma-prepared nurses?



    That is exactly my point, Chica...

    Unless a BSN in an obstacle to an APN standing, WHY should a floor nurse bother with a BSN. I'm sure most would agree that it will not make them a better floor nurse (by "floor," I mean non management). It just seems like no poster here has an answer for this. It seems that the only real reason to get a BSN (if you do not intend to someday get an APN standing, anyway) is because it looks better for the facility to say that "We hire only BSN trained nurses!"

    There is ABSOLUTELY no benefit for the nurse who is putting the money, and most importantly, TIME into obtaining the BSN. NONE!!! But because it is "Common Knowledge" that "Education is good," people say almost in a knee jerk fashion that maybe it is better for a BSN to be the entry level into nursing.

    Remember, we're talking ENTRY LEVEL HERE!!! If a nurse wants to be in a management position someday, then it would be on them to obtain that BSN. But for ENTRY LEVEL, can some BSN supporters PLEASE give a good reason other than "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky!" for aspiring nurses to spenf the time and money toward a degree that will in no way make them better at the ENTRY LEVEL job they aspire to attain? "Anyone, anyone...Bueler, Bueler....."
    redhead_NURSE98! and PMFB-RN like this.
  8. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    3
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    Finally, I know the difference between wages and salary very well. That's exactly why I said wage (not salary) because nurses, while wanting to be "professionals," get paid wages, while almost every other profession you can point a finger at gets a salary. Of course, most salary positions employ people with a bachelor's degree.
    *** If the price of being considered a "professional" by people who I don't even know is having to tolerate salary rather than wages I'll take a pass on the "professional" title. I feel I get tons of respect from my patients, co-workers, physicians and other members of the care team. I don't need others to call me a "professional", though this only an issue here on allnurses, not in real life.
  9. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    1
    Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSED
    [/B] PLEASE give a good reason other than "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky!" ....."
    This isn't another reason, but I can put "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky" in another way...

    Hospitals are steering toward BSN nurses. Have you looked at all the, "I graduated a year ago and still don't have a job" threads? Nursing isn't the "safe" job choice anymore. If you have two applicants that look exactly alike on paper and the ONLY thing setting them apart is that one has a BSN, who are you going to pick? BSN nurses make the same on the floor so having to pay more won't deter anyone.

    So, how about....it's good to get a bachelor's degree so that you can get a job? That's my good reason.

    Tons of professions require a bachelor's degree for ENTRY level positions. Whether it's been made "official" in nursing yet or not...BSN preferred and BSN required are becoming more and more common at the same time you're seeing more and more unemployed nurses.
    SummitRN likes this.
  10. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    2
    Quote from redhead_NURSE98!
    Yeah. A coffee server with a history, English, philosophy etc. degree that is underemployed. They weren't saying that it was required to be a barista!
    I pondered that, but didn't really see the relevance...whatever...

    You forgot to add nursing degree to that list!
    redhead_NURSE98! and SummitRN like this.
  11. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    2
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    This isn't another reason, but I can put "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky" in another way...

    Hospitals are steering toward BSN nurses. Have you looked at all the, "I graduated a year ago and still don't have a job" threads? Nursing isn't the "safe" job choice anymore. If you have two applicants that look exactly alike on paper and the ONLY thing setting them apart is that one has a BSN, who are you going to pick? BSN nurses make the same on the floor so having to pay more won't deter anyone.

    So, how about....it's good to get a bachelor's degree so that you can get a job? That's my good reason.

    Tons of professions require a bachelor's degree for ENTRY level positions. Whether it's been made "official" in nursing yet or not...BSN preferred and BSN required are becoming more and more common at the same time you're seeing more and more unemployed nurses.
    *** I agree with all of your comments but one. You list perfectly good reasons to obtain a BSN and you are right. However the part about "tons of professions require a bachelors degree for ENTRY". I say so what? I could give a damn about how other professions choose to conduct themselves. Much of it is only degree inflation anyway. The diversity brought to nursing through the availabiliety of the local community college nursing program is our strength.
    tewdles and BrandonLPN like this.
  12. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    0
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    Hospitals are steering toward BSN nurses. Have you looked at all the, "I graduated a year ago and still don't have a job" threads? Nursing isn't the "safe" job choice anymore. If you have two applicants that look exactly alike on paper and the ONLY thing setting them apart is that one has a BSN, who are you going to pick? BSN nurses make the same on the floor so having to pay more won't deter anyone.

    So, how about....it's good to get a bachelor's degree so that you can get a job? That's my good reason.
    Again, not necessarily true:
    "There were few differences in percentages between practicing and non-practicing RNs in terms of educational preparation in 2012. Thirty-five percent of practicing nurses are BSN prepared as compared to 31 percent of non-practicing nurses indicating little preference among all employers for BSN prepared nurses. Associate degree nurses comprise a slightly larger percentage (67%) of the non-practicing nurse population than the overall sample population (65%)."

    Again, the question of which is better is sort of irrelevant; if we move to all direct BSN programs and put all of our current Nursing students in half as many clinical spots, would a BSN still be preferable even with half as much clinical opportunity?
  13. Visit  tewdles profile page
    1
    Again, I don't believe that the evidence supports the thought that a BSN is necessary for a nurse to be able to provide competent and effective bedside nursing. I do believe that higher educational levels improve our critical thinking skills, among other things.

    It is wonderful that nurses seek to increase their formal education. I think it is fine when they don't and continue to practice good and compassionate nursing. I do not believe that professionalism is necessarily married to education, professional regard and respect are generally earned by our work behavior rather than by the alphabet salad after our names (when interacting with other health care disciplines).
    tntrn likes this.

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