BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it. - page 5

While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10... Read More

  1. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    8
    The same people who will defend associate's degrees to the death are often the same people who gripe about not being seen as a "professional."

    *** Interesting. I have not observed that, either in person or here on all nurses.

    So, you want to be seen as a professional,

    *** No, not really. I don't concern myself much with how nurses are "seen". i am perfectly comfortable with being skilled labor. After all it's hard to feel anything else when punching a time clock like your average factory worker.

    but you want to keep the training at the technical school level?

    *** YES!


    Most of the people who go to the community college around here are going to be some sort of tech/assistant, or to be a welder, auto repairman, or just as a stepping stone to the University.

    *** Or nurses!

    I don't really care what path anyone chooses, but until we are on the same playing field with other professions (which require at LEAST a bachelor's degree)

    *** I don't see the benifit of being on the same playing field as other health care workers. I like our nitch. In my opinion nursing is made much stronger by the high level of diversity we have. A diversity made possible by the local community college nursing program.

    then it's really pointless to complain about or demand more wages (notice I didn't say salary), respect, etc.

    *** Wages are much preferable to salary.
    mya612, Kandy83, B in the USA, and 5 others like this.
  2. Visit  ughhmehh profile page
    4
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    Most baristas already have a bachelor's degree? We're talking a coffee server, right?
    They do where I live. Some of them have masters degrees.
    tewdles, tokmom, BrandonLPN, and 1 other like this.
  3. Visit  SummitRN profile page
    2
    Quote from brandy1017
    Not to rain on your parade but an ADN RN is done with school and working sooner than the BSN RN, gaining real life work experience which is obviously superior to clinicals, plus making money sooner and carrying less student loan debt.

    Instead of making this a contest about who is the better nurse one needs to think about what the best course of action is for themself and their family
    Then, in the name of financial and personal success, consider this:

    In my state and many many others, the average job search time for ASN NG RNs is twice as long, a year or more, vs BSN new grads. That and the jobs available for ASN NGs are usually not higher paying hospital jobs. It may take many ASN NGs 2-3 years to get into a hospital job. Many more ASN NGs become unhirable "stale grads" than do BSN grads.

    It isn't because ASN grads are unworthy, it is simple competition in a competitive labor market. Please consider that when talking about what is best.
    anggelRN and llg like this.
  4. Visit  SummitRN profile page
    0
    Quote from MunoRN
    I'm skeptical of the idea that changing the level of entry will affect pay. If Baristas decide they're going to all get PhD's, it's unlikely that will improve their pay; it's market driven.
    I could ask you if you understand labor supply vs employer demand for employees?
    Or the idea of value adding requirements for professionals vs the unskilled labor in your example?

    If shifting to a BSN increased pay, then we should have already seen an increase relative to other healthcare specialties. Instead, Nursing salary growth has lagged behind other specialties for which the educational requirement have remained a 1 or 2 year program, even though the number of BSN Nurses has significantly increased.
    Now I will ask you I could ask you if you understand labor supply vs employer demand. With expanding nursing programs everywhere for the last decade and everyone running to nursing because of the false "shortage," it is easy to understand. Making over half of the NG RN production BSNs while total NG production exceeds demand by 25% simply lets the employers demand desperate new BSNs work for ADN pay while telling a bunch of ADNs (and BSNs) that they are qualified, but not needed. Further, lifetime pay increases slow as there are plenty of desperate unemployed nurses available on the market to replace experienced nurses if they become too expensive.

    If the barrier to entry increases through increased educational demands (value added) and thus new-professional production is slowed, the nursing labor supply will stop exploding allowing for increases in salary that reflect the professional and educational status of the labor pool.

    Now, I'd ask you, what labor and statistics data are you reading??????????

    What Allied Healthcare professions that are still 1 year programs do you want to compare nursing too? Paramedics making $14/hr? Scrub techs? MAs making $12/hr?

    If nursing is a vocation, compare us to career certificate programs that require a GED to get in. If nurses are medical professionals, why don't you look at what happened with increased requirements and pay for PT, OT, Pharmacy, etc.
  5. Visit  BrandonLPN profile page
    4
    Why can't there be a third level of licnesure? The ADN can still result in sitting for the NCLEX-RN, and grads of a BSN can sit for.... Something else. A scope of practice higher than the current RN? In any case, having multiple educational pathways for the *exact* same licensure is illogical and confusing.
    subee, PRICHARILLAisMISSED, Altra, and 1 other like this.
  6. Visit  BrandonLPN profile page
    3
    The real bottom line is: Is raising the entry to practice going to raise the pay scale? As someone aptly pointed out, grad students working at Starbucks still make nine bucks an hour. BSN nurses here make $0.50 more an hour than ADN nurses. ADN nurses can still find a job easily where I live. If employers want BSNs so badly, why aren't they paying them accordingly?
    Kandy83, PMFB-RN, and tokmom like this.
  7. Visit  dirtyhippiegirl profile page
    3
    Quote from brandy1017
    Not to rain on your parade but an ADN RN is done with school and working sooner than the BSN RN, gaining real life work experience which is obviously superior to clinicals, plus making money sooner and carrying less student loan debt. What's not to like about this scenario? In this day and age of shrinking benefits, pensions, health insurance, it's a very smart decision to keep costs low and maximize income!
    ADNs have a much harder time finding employment, especially hospital employment, in my neck of the woods than BSNs do. The largest academic hospital in the area won't be hiring ADNs at all starting in January.
    Kandy83, hiddencatRN, and SummitRN like this.
  8. Visit  redhead_NURSE98! profile page
    2
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    Most baristas already have a bachelor's degree? We're talking a coffee server, right?
    Yeah. A coffee server with a history, English, philosophy etc. degree that is underemployed. They weren't saying that it was required to be a barista!
    nursel56 and SummitRN like this.
  9. Visit  redhead_NURSE98! profile page
    2
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    The same people who will defend associate's degrees to the death are often the same people who gripe about not being seen as a "professional."

    *** Interesting. I have not observed that, either in person or here on all nurses.
    Me either. I never took an account of the people on here who complain about not being seen as a professional to see if they were ADN or BSN. You?

    Quote from PMFB-RN
    Most of the people who go to the community college around here are going to be some sort of tech/assistant, or to be a welder, auto repairman, or just as a stepping stone to the University.

    *** Or nurses!


    I'm not sure that this person knows the difference between a community college and a vo-tech.


    Quote from PMFB-RN

    *** Wages are much preferable to salary.
    Agreed. I make more per hour as a nurse than I did as a mid-level associate attorney once you consider how many "unpaid" hours I spent working under salary. And when I'm done I get to hand off to another employee, say "Here ya go, GOOD LUCK!," go home and RELAX.
    nursel56 and PMFB-RN like this.
  10. Visit  redhead_NURSE98! profile page
    0
    Quote from SummitAP
    Then, in the name of financial and personal success, consider this:

    In my state and many many others, the average job search time for ASN NG RNs is twice as long, a year or more, vs BSN new grads. That and the jobs available for ASN NGs are usually not higher paying hospital jobs. It may take many ASN NGs 2-3 years to get into a hospital job. Many more ASN NGs become unhirable "stale grads" than do BSN grads.
    I'd be interested to see the statistics on this from your and "many many other" states.
  11. Visit  Wrench Party profile page
    0
    In my area
    a) it takes 1 more semester to get your BSN over your ADN, and both were equally affordable when factoring in grants and scholarships.
    b) the BSN can be earned in a total shorter amount of time.
    c) the last thing I want to think about as a new grad is turning around and going back for more school.

    Hospitals in my area are going Magnet, and while I do not think this improves patient care, having the BSN gives you
    better job outcomes over the abundance of ADN programs in the area.
  12. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    4
    Quote from dirtyhippiegirl
    ADNs have a much harder time finding employment, especially hospital employment, in my neck of the woods than BSNs do. The largest academic hospital in the area won't be hiring ADNs at all starting in January.
    Again, there are those for whom a BSN is an obvious choice; those who intend to move on beyond a BSN for instance, or those who want to work at many of the "largest academic hospitals", as you pointed out. The universities on which these hospitals are based, are selling a product that could potentially have trouble competing in the marketplace by itself, so some manipulation of the market is needed. For those institutions that both sell the product and essentially buy the product back, there is the opportunity to manipulate demand by saying they will only buy the product they produced. Sort of like if you own a hospital owned by Dickies scrubs, what brand of scrubs do think they will require that you wear?

    I don't really fault BSN programs for this, it's supply and demand and they need demand for their product. I do think it's worthwhile for us as Nurses to understand the reasoning behind this to help us make informed choices.
  13. Visit  SummitRN profile page
    1
    MunroRN, your contention that only hospitals affiliated with BSN granting Universities prefer BSN's not only sounds like a conspiracy theory, it doesn't reflect reality.

    EVERY hospital in Denver has at least BSN preferred, some positions list BSN preferred and BSN required within 2-3 years of hire. One hospital that is not a university hospital will no longer hire ASNs even with experience. The rural hospitals have "BSN preferred for new grad positions at least.

    RedHead Nurse98:
    http://www.oswahcr.com/documents/Nur...ge_Mancino.pdf
    2011 NSNA survey: After 4 months, 10% more trad BSN employed than ADN. My understanding is the disparity grows with time. Note that this doesn't track the acute vs nonacute disparity.

    There is a CA study that shows this disparity that I will look for. I'll also try to find the average job search time disparity stats that show ADN job searches are taking 50% longer.
    Last edit by SummitRN on Nov 18, '12
    hiddencatRN likes this.


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