ADN's being pushed out

allnurses Guide · Apr 23, 2015

The problem is not that the ANA didn't take the helm. They took the helm as far as they were able to do with their chosen strategy.

It's becoming a moot argument, anyway because employers know competition for jobs is much higher than it has been any time that I can remember, anyway.

On another issue, if the ANA took the helm on their "ratios are a bad idea" policy there wouldn't be an NNU at all nor defections of many state ANA branches from the ANA mothership.

Lindarn, if only hospitals and institutions would take the common-sense steps you mentioned as far as long-time nurses and simply do the right thing there!

Based on what I hear and read on AN, I'm not feeling too hopeful.

toERortonot · Apr 23, 2015

odd... i know this is an old thread, 50-75% of the people i had orientation with graduated with an associates. new graduates. at least half the people on the floor ARE NOT bsn nurses. i am a california new graduate with no experience. took me a month to find a job.

JustMeRN · Apr 25, 2015

You are right, when you state that the entry into practice should be standardized, but you dropped the ball when you go on to state, that ADN should be all that is required to be a nurse.
RECREATIONAL THERAPISTS, have a Bachelors Degree as entry into practice. That is a four year college degree, to lead cruises on ships, etc. And you don't believe that a Registered Nurse, who is responsible for patient's lives, also should have a four year college degree?
I don't know where the idea came from, that the additional two years from ADN to BSN, is only, "fluff, filler classes". I was a Diploma grad originally, and my program had us enrolled in a local college, where we took our hard sciences (A&P, two semesters, Chemistry, psychology, English, etc), and we graduated with 32 college credits).
When I enrolled at CSULB, my program consisted of, Pathobiology, Pathophysiolgy, Inorganic and Organic Chemistry, Statistics, Nursing classes, like Public Health, Nursing classes, for the entire two years, (I don' t remember what they were called), but we had to find our own clinical, and had X amount of clinical hours that had to be attained, with a preceptor, etc. It took me 6 years going part time to finish my BSN, and working full time three 12 hour shifts a week, and going to school part time, to accomplish. They were most definitely not fluff classes. We had end of semester papers to accomplish with each class. For two years. It took me longer to finish because I was working full time 12 hour shifts, and going to school part time. I also concurrently earned a Minor in Physical Education, with my BSN. My PE classes, added, Exercise Physiology, Anatomy and Kinesiology, and a slew of other PE classes to my schedule. Think push ups (boys, not girls), Situps, Bar Dips, and Pull Ups, at the gym,etc.
I am sorry about the experiences that nurses are having to go through. Nurses who already licensed nurses, should be grandfathered in. Only new nurses should have to earn a BSN.
I am not sure who dropped the ball, when it came to, "completer programs", for a BSN. If the only classes that are offered/taken, are the truly fluff classes that are being discussed here, than you are being robbed of an education.
Substandard programs should be close- this is where politicians come in- make complaints to them.
Also, I strongly believe, that if nurses had taken control of our profession from the get go, and demand that the ANA, take the helm to decide on an entry into practice, then hospitals would not be manipulating the educational requirements of nursing. It is nothing less than abusive to require an older, experienced nurse, with family obligations, to drop everything, take a significant finally hit, to go back to school and earn a BSN, with no guarantee of continued employment with a facility. It is the job of an professions, governing group, who should be deciding on the entry into practice, not groups of administrators. Nasty letters should be sent to the ANA, and your State Nursing Associations, as well.
I can see it now, nurses making large sacrifices, to earn BSN, and then the hospital fires them on some trumped up charge- thinning the older nurse herd.
I really don't know what the answer is, besides unionizing with the NNOC, get some legislative action from your Congressperson, to try to fix this mess. A group that has some clout.
It is really not just about having better outcomes, with BSNs. The profession needs to pony up and increase its educational requirements for once and for all. Three entry into practices only serves to continue to keep us divided, and infighting. And the hospitals love it.
LPNs should also go to a two year Associates Degree as entry into practice.
The public equates worth with education. Higher education should be rewarded with higher pay. Period. Regardless of the same job description
I believe that the hospitals, that are requiring a BSN from their present nursing staff, should be made to foot the bill, and have classes on the premises, at convenient hours to the nursing staff, taking into consideration shifts, etc. Pharmacists had classes in the hospitals, when they went to a Doctorate. It was made as convenient as possible, as to not disrupt their personal lives. Why not nurses. Actually, Long Beach Memorial Hospital has joined with CSULB, to offer a BSN program on premises, after work hours. Of course, 20 years after I graduated!
The ball is in you court, nurses. You can continue on the same path, with no end in sight, or you can pony up, come together, and fix the problem.
As usual just my NY $0.02
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN (ret)
Somewhere in the PACNW

Show me where the research shows that bsn makes difference over ADN outside of acute care? As far as I have seen it doesn't exsist. ADN nurses have a place. Current research shows that place is not in acute care. So be it, but, nursing is such a huge and expansive profession, there is a place for ADN nurses. In fact, there are lots of places for ADN nurses.

Nursing is a profession, I don't believe it takes a four year degree to be a professional. I wholeheartedly believe that ADN nurses are every bit a professional as BSN nurses. I don't discount the education behind a BSN and I don't think it is all fluff as some have suggested. I think BSN nurses and ADN nurses are prepared for different things. Understanding those limitations is, IMO, where the importance will come in. Research shows hospitals with BSN nurses have better outcomes, then yes, there should definately be a move to hiring only bsn nurses and encouraging and supporting current employees to get a bsn (I will never agree that requiring a nurse to obtain a BSN under threat of termination is understandable). However, there is not research, or even suggesiton, that having a bsn nurse over an ADN nurse in the multitude of other nursing practice areas makes any difference. Why in the world would we shut down the programs that provide more than 65% of today's nurses, when there is no clear indication, or even suggestion, that they are not valuable assessts to certain areas of healthcare?

Many have compared nurse training to physician training, stating the standard entry to practice for all physicians is the same, why shouldn't it be so for nurses. Well, I call bull on that. Its comparing drastically different fields. But for the sake of argument lets say they are similar. If you want to be a doctor you finish and undergraduated degree then medical school. Now at some point you have to decide where you want to specialize. So you may be dr. Soandso when you graduate med shcool, but until you figure out residencies and further specializtion areas you are not ready for entry into independant practice.

So, lets apply the same principals to nursing, shall we? The first 2 years encompass all the basics of nursing, and you are able to apply for and pass nclex to be licensed as a nurse. This is entry level, but, if you want to work in acute care, or specialized areas you need to keep plugging away. You continue on to BSN for areas such as acute care, or move into clinical specialty areas if you have an area of interst. If you choose to keep just the ADN degree your job opportunites are limited, and you won't be moving up any ladders. Want even more, well then comes the msn, the np programs, phd and doctorate programs. We are all nurses, but the area we choose to work in determines the level of education we must persue. IMO, this is the way practice should be moving. Educating for specific roles. Nursing is too large of a profession with too many specialty areas to claim that having a BSN is the gold standard.

am6459 · Apr 25, 2015

I don't really feel the degree makes you a better nurse. I've known LPNs knowing and performing better than most RNs. I have known ADN nurses that run circles around a BSN nurses and the other way around. The degree does not always determine how well a nurse does.

avengingspirit1 · Apr 27, 2015

My wife works in academia and has a doctorate degree se is not financially rewareded for if it makes you feel better.
I told you from the very beginning that I knew you were in some way was affiliated with academia or had someone close to you that was. You repeatedly made it a point to state you don't work in academia, but as I could deduce from your often smug and aloof postings, there was some connection. Now you admit that your wife that works in academia.
You talk about nurses being lazy and unmotivated (Yes, you actually did say that in previous post in the last two years) because they don't want to make the sacrifice and go into debt for thousands of dollars to write APA format papers on topics such as; "Sociology of Nursing" and "Theoretical Foundations of Nursing". Why don't you enlighten the readers on how you were able to have a child, buy a house and go for that doctorate without having to take out a second and third mortgage on the home you just bought (I remember you saying you couldn't decide whether to get doctorate in Psychology or Nursing).
Yes I must be in cahoots. Save for the fact i don't work as an RN. I don't teach as an RN. I don't work in hospital administration. I have zero vested interest in the agenda you think there is a conspiracy pushing.
The truth is you could make that choice of going for either one of those doctorates because you knew you were having your tuition partially or mostly reimbursed. You say you don't work as a nurse, don't teach as an RN and have no vested interest but admitted in an earlier post that you were getting a tuition break for being a preceptor. I know here in my area, if a spouse or parent works for the universities, their significant other and/or their kids get to go to that university nearly tuition free. I don't know if you actually attended that school your wife works for, but I know from reading between the lines in your posts that you are not having to pay back 100% of your doctorate tuition. Most nurses don't have the connections or luxury of having their tuition for higher degrees reimbursed.
I also know you used to live in the Philadelphia area area and either had a strong admiration for or some connection to Linda Aiken. Nothing wrong with that; but I repeat that her research was found to be flawed and I previously sent you several links to research data and analysis on the topic. And speaking of pseudoscience, the Aiken research was proven to be just that. Which is one of the reasons why state laws were not changed. You see, I contacted our surrounding state governors and told them who was driving the BSN push and what organizations they were affiliated with and how they stood to gain by driving nurses back to school.
You seem to to find it hard to accept that several organizations benefit from driving nurses back to school. I guess in your academic minded opinion, lobbyists are conspirators. I know of several organizations benefiting from coercing nurses to run back to school:
If enrollments increase in four year nursing programs, the dept. would then qualify for government funding. Also state nursing associations have the schools to join students join their state associations. Not to mention the contracts with the textbook companies as well as the nice bonuses for those running the nursing programs as a result from increased government funding.
This is the reality of the business of academia in spite of what you may be telling the starry-eyed students you precept who depend on you for a favorable evaluation.
And lastly, currently the NCLEX pass rates are higher for diploma grads. Not that that matters as in some years the BSN rates were higher and in others it was the diploma grads. These pass rates fluctuate from year to year and are not any indication of which programs are better.
https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates_2015_%283%29.pdf
So again, you who have claimed to have no vested interest continue to do what you have to do and I will continue to do what I have to do. I will also still ask nurses to contact me with the private option if you want the link to the radio host who talked about the topic of nursing degree elevation when a nurse manager called into the show and also debunked the whole BSNs make better nurses nonsense. Anyone with common sense knows it's not the degree that makes the nurse; it is the nurse that makes the nurse and there will always be ADNs who are are better nurses than BSNs and BSNs who are better nurses than ADNs. That is up to the individual nurses.

allnurses Guide · Apr 27, 2015

I told you from the very beginning that I knew you were in some way was affiliated with academia or had someone close to you that was. You repeatedly made it a point to state you don't work in academia, but as I could deduce from your often smug and aloof postings, there was some connection. Now you admit that your wife that works in academia.

My wife's job has nothing to do with this issue. It is telling that you are not able to produce a shred of evidence to support any of your claims and engaged is any sort of meaningful discussion on the topics and instead resort to continued conspiracy theory now involving my wife who has nothing to do with nursing or the nursing agenda or even undergraduate education. Talk about the issue at hand, not my wife, and why don't you try to hold back on the personal attacks about my "smugness" because it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. If you have no defense other than personal attack then perhaps refrain from posting because you are doing nothing but detracting from the discussion.

Why don't you enlighten the readers on how you were able to have a child, buy a house and go for that doctorate without having to take out a second and third mortgage on the home you just bought (I remember you saying you couldn't decide whether to get doctorate in Psychology or Nursing).

Again this issue isn't about me, but I guess you have nothing to contribute to the issue at hand. To "enlighten all the readers": I was on a merit scholarship for my initial undergraduate degree which covered much of the left tuition at a expensive LA school. I worked as a waiter/bartender 30 hours a week during undergraduate school and managed to have less than $20k in debt at the end of undergrad. I got a job in business and pulled 80 hour weeks while I was single, paid off my debt, and put every cent I could into savings. Five years later I went back to nursing school and used most of my savings to pay for from my MSN, graduated with about $50k in debt. I precept as many students as I can and had my doctoral degree mostly free from academic credits from precepting. I still have a little bit of debt left on Stafford loans which I pay double on every month. I have a hefty mortgage too. If I need some extra money I pick up an extra moonlight shift.

Want the number for my financial planner? Want any more personal info?

The truth is you could make that choice of going for either one of those doctorates because you knew you were having your tuition partially or mostly reimbursed. You say you don't work as a nurse, don't teach as an RN and have no vested interest but admitted in an earlier post that you were getting a tuition break for being a preceptor. I know here in my area, if a spouse or parent works for the universities, their significant other and/or their kids get to go to that university nearly tuition free. I don't know if you actually attended that school your wife works for, but I know from reading between the lines in your posts that you are not having to pay back 100% of your doctorate tuition. Most nurses don't have the connections or luxury of having their tuition for higher degrees reimbursed.

Oh, more personal assumptions. Let me enlighten you again. My wife's job has nothing to do with me, she teaches graduate school and her school has no nursing program.

As above, I did get academic credits for my doctorate precepting graduate students. I have nothing to do with undergraduate students.

I also know you used to live in the Philadelphia area area and either had a strong admiration for or some connection to Linda Aiken. Nothing wrong with that; but I repeat that her research was found to be flawed and I previously sent you several links to research data and analysis on the topic. And speaking of pseudoscience, the Aiken research was proven to be just that. Which is one of the reasons why state laws were not changed. You see, I contacted our surrounding state governors and told them who was driving the BSN push and what organizations they were affiliated with and how they stood to gain by driving nurses back to school.

I have never lived anywhere near Philadelphia.

Please cite your sources "proving" that any of Aiken's studies were scientifically or statistically flawed.

Please cite any governor name that you spoke to.

The time has come for you to start putting some citations on the hearsay you fling around like fact.

Again, cite your courses.

This is the reality of the business of academia in spite of what you may be telling the starry-eyed students you precept who depend on you for a favorable evaluation.

I precept graduate students. They are already on their path to terminal degrees well before I meet them, keep grasping at straws from my personal life to somehow make a point other than your lack of any credible contributions to the discussion.

I will also still ask nurses to contact me with the private option if you want the link to the radio host who talked about the topic of nursing degree elevation when a nurse manager called into the show and also debunked the whole BSNs make better nurses nonsense. Anyone with common sense knows it's not the degree that makes the nurse; it is the nurse that makes the nurse and there will always be ADNs who are are better nurses than BSNs and BSNs who are better nurses than ADNs. That is up to the individual nurses.

Why not post it here? Why not post any of the sources you get your "information" from? POst them here. Cite your courses.

Your last comment really just shows that you don't understand the issue on hand at all or how it is researched: this has never been about whether there are "ADNs who are better nurses than BSNs", obviously there are. What the data has showed is that if the sample size is large enough that the outcomes form BSNs are slightly better than the outcomes of ADNs.

avengingspirit1 · Apr 27, 2015

My wife's job has nothing to do with this issue. It is telling that you are not able to produce a shred of evidence to support any of your claims and engaged is any sort of meaningful discussion on the topics and instead resort to continued conspiracy theory now involving my wife who has nothing to do with nursing or the nursing agenda or even undergraduate education. Talk about the issue at hand, not my wife, and why don't you try to hold back on the personal attacks about my "smugness" because it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. If you have no defense other than personal attack then perhaps refrain from posting because you are doing nothing but detracting from the discussion.
Again this issue isn't about me, but I guess you have nothing to contribute to the issue at hand. To "enlighten all the readers": I was on a merit scholarship for my initial undergraduate degree which covered much of the left tuition at a expensive LA school. I worked as a waiter/bartender 30 hours a week during undergraduate school and managed to have less than $20k in debt at the end of undergrad. I got a job in business and pulled 80 hour weeks while I was single, paid off my debt, and put every cent I could into savings. Five years later I went back to nursing school and used most of my savings to pay for from my MSN, graduated with about $50k in debt. I precept as many students as I can and had my doctoral degree mostly free from academic credits from precepting. I still have a little bit of debt left on Stafford loans which I pay double on every month. I have a hefty mortgage too. If I need some extra money I pick up an extra moonlight shift.
Want the number for my financial planner? Want any more personal info?
Oh, more personal assumptions. Let me enlighten you again. My wife's job has nothing to do with me, she teaches graduate school and her school has no nursing program.
As above, I did get academic credits for my doctorate precepting graduate students. I have nothing to do with undergraduate students.
I have never lived anywhere near Philadelphia.
Please cite your sources "proving" that any of Aiken's studies were scientifically or statistically flawed.
Please cite any governor name that you spoke to.
The time has come for you to start putting some citations on the hearsay you fling around like fact.
Again, cite your courses.
I precept graduate students. They are already on their path to terminal degrees well before I meet them, keep grasping at straws from my personal life to somehow make a point other than your lack of any credible contributions to the discussion.
Why not post it here? Why not post any of the sources you get your "information" from? POst them here. Cite your courses.
Your last comment really just shows that you don't understand the issue on hand at all or how it is researched: this has never been about whether there are "ADNs who are better nurses than BSNs", obviously there are. What the data has showed is that if the sample size is large enough that the outcomes form BSNs are slightly better than the outcomes of ADNs.

I cited my sources previously but because they didn't fit into you narrative, you conveniently forgot them. Just like you conveniently make no mention of the current 2015 NCLEX pass rates being higher with diploma grads (https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates_2015_%283%29.pdf).

You said in a previous post, could have been as far back as 2013 that you spent time in the Philadelphia area. Check back within these 55 pages and you'll find them. You think that no one recalls what you wrote in posts 2 years ago. But many of us do.

Fact is you implied you had no affiliation with academia, and that is simply not true. having a spouse working in academia is an affiliation. And every time I call you on something you said previously, you try to put a spin on it to explain it. Just like when Janet Haebler, a main driver of the BSN push changed her tune when there was a big backlash in 2011 about her wanting to change state laws to require BSN; she then stated, "The ANA does not endorse state legislation, we just endorse the concept." What a bunch of academic doubletalk!

Sorry, I no longer find you credible since it is clear you are affiliated in some way with academia when you repeatedly said you weren't. You also now deny saying you spent some time in the Philadelphia area when in one of you previous posts you claimed to had. What else are you going to change when called out on it. Get your stories straight, man.

allnurses Guide · Apr 27, 2015

I cited my sources previously but because they didn't fit into you narrative, you conveniently forgot them. Just like you conveniently make no mention of the current 2015 NCLEX pass rates being higher with diploma grads (https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates_2015_%283%29.pdf).

I "convenienty forgot" about you citing this link for several reasons:

1. It is not related to the original topic. I cited the previous several years to simply show a PP that their statement was not congruent with the data.

2. It is an incomplete data set.

3. It demonstrates no statistically significant difference between diploma pass rates and BSN pass rates (and you implied). There is a significant difference between BSN and ADN though. Want to explain how that proves your point that ADN and BSN is equal?

You said in a previous post, could have been as far back as 2013 that you spent time in the Philadelphia area. Check back within these 55 pages and you'll find them. You think that no one recalls what you wrote in posts 2 years ago. But many of us do.

Again, I have never spent any significant amount of time in Philadelphia. I went to a wedding there once, but that's it. I am not sure I understand your infatuation with it, perhaps it would deepen your Aiken conspiracy theory, but I have only been there less than 48 hours in my life.

Fact is you implied you had no affiliation with academia, and that is simply not true. having a spouse working in academia is an affiliation. And every time I call you on something you said previously, you try to put a spin on it to explain it. Just like when Janet Haebler, a main driver of the BSN push changed her tune when there was a big backlash in 2011 about her wanting to change state laws to require BSN; she then stated, "The ANA does not endorse state legislation, we just endorse the concept." What a bunch of academic doubletalk!

Again, having a wife that teaches graduate level education in an unrelated field has no significant impact on this discussion. Continuing to dwell on it, as I mentioned to you before, simply detracts from the discussion.

Sorry, I no longer find you credible since it is clear you are affiliated in some way with academia when you repeatedly said you weren't. You also now deny saying you spent some time in the Philadelphia area when in one of you previous posts you claimed to had. What else are you going to change when called out on it. Get your stories straight, man.

You seem to have the exact same response to anything that doesn't fit your preconceived belief on the topic: you find some sort of conspiracy theory to justify to yourself that the information isn't "credible". When you want to have and actual discussion on the topic instead of pretending like the growing amount of data opposing your belief is all the result of some sort of international nursing conspiracy, or if you have any legitimate sources to cite, please go ahead and contribute.

Unless you want to cite the sources I requested from you above. To refresh your memory you stated that you have a source that all the Aiken studies have been proven wrong and that you had a number of state governors you have on the record.

So, sources for:

1. Aiken studies proven to be fraudulent.

2. State governors you have on the record supporting your position.

allnurses Guide · Apr 27, 2015

And for the record, the biggest difference between our positions and approach to this issue is that if there was any quality data published that demonstrated that outcomes were not any different between degrees, I would change my position in a heart beat. This is about science to me not personal preference.

Sent from my iPhone.

Editorial Team / Admin · Apr 27, 2015

Closed for review.