ADN's being pushed out - page 14

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned... Read More

  1. Visit  SleeepyRN profile page
    0
    Quote from JustADream
    Here in Georgia, I have experienced BSN nurses (and even BSN nursing students) indicating that they feel that ADN and diploma nurses are inferior. Fortunately at my institution, there are still ADN nurses in management that advocate for ADN and diploma-prepared nurses (I am ADN). Some other facilities in this area have changed their policies to where they only hire BSN nurses, but the majority are not that way at least around where I live.

    That is not to say that I don't think people should continue their education if they can- in fact I have already applied to an RN-BSN program on my own. However, it is disappointing to me as a new grad to see nurses and other staff judging someone on the sole basis of their educational background without even knowing what they are capable of at the bedside. To me, it is not the education that makes the nurse, but rather the unique individual that makes the nurse! I have met what I would consider good and bad nurses from all educational levels so far.

    To give you an example, I recently overheard a tech belittling ADN programs to a group of other techs. She is in nursing school for her BSN and basically said that ADN nursing programs suck and should be eliminated. She is entitled to her opinion, but it is interesting to me how she can be so judgmental + arrogant and not even have graduated or taken NCLEX-RN yet. Anyway, I worked hard in nursing school for my ASN and I feel that my program did an excellent job of preparing me for the "real world." I also know that I am proud to be an RN and nothing anyone says is going to change my mind, especially that particular tech.
    Awesome post
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  3. Visit  SleeepyRN profile page
    1
    Quote from RHIA, RN
    Sadly, I am facing this reality. I just earned my ADN RN, I have been a LPN for 10 years. At least 3 of the jobs I have applied to flat out told me that if I had a BSN I would have got the job. To add to that sting, I have heard over and over "LPN experience does not count". I am so dissapointed. I already have a BS but I wanted that RN so badly . . . now that I have it I am being told that I have to get a BSN. Looks like I'll be going back to the RHIA work for a while. *sigh*
    If I were a patient and had the choice of a nurse like you who worked your way up the ranks vs a nurse who went straight for their BSN, I'd honestly prefer the nurse who went the extra mile. The nurse who became an LPN, worked as an LPN, WENT BACK to school and became an RN. I think those that bridge from LPN to ADN-RN and then go back to school AGAIN for their BSN....Now that's what I admire. I'm not putting down BSNs. I just think its actually a little easier to start and end with a 4 year degree.
    gummi bear likes this.
  4. Visit  BostonFNP profile page
    1
    Quote from SleeepyRN

    If I were a patient and had the choice of a nurse like you who worked your way up the ranks vs a nurse who went straight for their BSN, I'd honestly prefer the nurse who went the extra mile. The nurse who became an LPN, worked as an LPN, WENT BACK to school and became an RN. I think those that bridge from LPN to ADN-RN and then go back to school AGAIN for their BSN....Now that's what I admire. I'm not putting down BSNs. I just think its actually a little easier to start and end with a 4 year degree.
    Apples to oranges in this comparison.

    If you had to be cared for by a team of ASN nurses with 15 years of experience or a team of BSN/MSN/DNP nurses with 15 year of experience which would you choose?
    Nurse_Diane likes this.
  5. Visit  BostonFNP profile page
    0
    Quote from SleeepyRN

    Well if we do have an inferiority complex, for many of us it stems from our experiences. When I graduated my ADN program, my parents had a graduation party for me in which I had about 30 family members attend. I was happy and proud I graduated, but when all my family members asked me what my next plans were, and I told them I was taking classes for my BSN, they all had this confused look on their faces. Some even asked, "so wait, you're not a nurse yet?" It was clear they immediately thought less of my accomplishment. Another example: when I was in nursing school working as a tech, I was asked a lot "what school do you go to?" When I answered, their reply was this "oh." I could almost hear their thoughts. Their faces and tone said it all. That my ADN program was inferior and made me less of a nursing student. I don't feel inferior to those with BSNs. I know I got a damn good education. I just wish others knew I got a damn good education too so that I can stop getting disrespected. Soon I'll have my BSN and the point will be moot for me once and for all. I can't wait.

    Oh, and the posters who say you were single, pregnant, had kids, worked full time and continued your education.... That is AWESOME. I admire you. But when you follow it up with "so if you really wanted it, you could do it too," I immediately lose some of that respect for you because you come off condescending. I was financially unable to go straight to an RN to BSN program. I had to wait til I could afford my next class. I'm still paying off loans from my first degree, and I no longer have good enough credit to obtain further loans. My education for the past 4 years has all come straight out of my pocket. And so will the next year of schooling. Some people, no matter how badly they want to continue their education, just can't right now. This "if I can do it, anybody can do it garbage, is just that. garbage. When I graduated, I immediately registered for a summer statistics class, but my husband and I got in a big fight over the money, so I didn't take the class. I worked, THEN paid for a Spring class.
    You are obviously working very hard to continue your eduction: education must carry considerable merit with you. What is the merit of education?
  6. Visit  BostonFNP profile page
    0
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Yes I do. And I also know what a sales pitch is. And that's what this this study as well as the previous ones are. These studies are nothing more than marketing campaigns funded and backed by the very organizations that stand to benefit by having nurses run back to school for something that has no bearing on patient care. So you can have as many people as you want who are affiliated with four year schools write in and try to cover the truth.

    Real working nurses and nurse managers have told me the BSN nurses are on the floors with their textbooks in their hands and are deficient in basic nursing skills. I go by the testimonials of real working nurses, not those who sit up in ivory towers and and haven't been on nursing floor in over a decade. I don't want to stick it to Aiken, I am only criticizing her biased research. I know she's just doing what she's being paid to do. It's nothing personal, just business.

    As far as peer-reviewed research, have her research reviewed by people other than those who think the same way she does. Also, talk to real working nurses and hear what they have to say. Until then, I will continue to work with the media to get the story out about what a farce the BSN push is. Stories have already been done about general degree inflation. Now we're working on something specifically geared to nursing.
    Ahh so your biased small small informal qualitative research trumps Aiken's large sample peer-reviewed quantitative research?

    So basically what you are saying is the JAMA is biased towards advancing the nursing elitist agenda?
  7. Visit  dt70 profile page
    0
    Quote from BostonFNP

    Apples to oranges in this comparison.

    If you had to be cared for by a team of ASN nurses with 15 years of experience or a team of BSN/MSN/DNP nurses with 15 year of experience which would you choose?

    I agree higher degree is better for employment advances, but as a patient, how is the leadership classes going to benefit me?
  8. Visit  BostonFNP profile page
    2
    Quote from dt70

    I agree higher degree is better for employment advances, but as a patient, how is the leadership classes going to benefit me?
    Leadership is one of the many things gained and it helps not only with advancement but with implementation on EBP, patient advocacy, etc.

    There is also a myriad of other benefits, the largest of which (IMHO) is a demonstrated commitment to a lifetime of learning which leads to individuals staying up to date on research, building their knowledge base, investing in themselves as a tool to better patient outcomes.
    Nurse_Diane and SleeepyRN like this.
  9. Visit  llg profile page
    1
    Quote from dt70
    I agree higher degree is better for employment advances, but as a patient, how is the leadership classes going to benefit me?
    Do you think that the difference between an ADN and a BSN are just "management" classes? If you do, you are wrong. "Leadership" includes being a leader on the team taking care of a particular patient -- organizing the flow of patient care, supervising the CNA's and students, etc.. The BSN content also prepares the nurse to see the big picture of societal issues that are having an impact on the care of a particular patient. The courses also prepare the nurse to be a full member (and sometimes, leader) of that multidisciplinary team that may include physicians, social work, PT, OT, RT, patient advocate, etc.

    As I always say, "There are certainly some bad BSN programs out there -- just as there are bad programs in any type of education. But a good BSN program prepares a nurse to function at a more comprehensive and sophisticated level than a typical ADN program does." The individual benefits by having a nurse coordinate his care that is better-prepared to be a full partner (and leader) of the team as needed.
    Nurse_Diane likes this.
  10. Visit  dt70 profile page
    0
    Do you think that the difference between an ADN and a BSN are just "management" classes?
    No, I do not.
    I asked the question because I wanted to hear an answer in regards to actual benefit the patient achieves from a Bsn degree nurse.

    The hospitals I was a patient at only had RN and first name on the badges, so there is no way for me to grade the nurses based on their degree.

    At this time, I want to pursue a career change as a nurse. I am moving to a new state and will not pay out of state tuition for an undergraduate degree. So, I have plenty of time for research on entry options and goals.
  11. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    0
    You mean JAMA, the organization that lets all readers know from the get-go that articles published do not reflect official views of the AMA: " However, according to JAMA, articles in it "do not reflect the official policy of the American Medical Association...."(Medicinenet.com). There's no doubt that Aiken and her colleagues have some clout. And with funding and backing from organizations such as the ANA, IOM, AACN as well as others committed to BSN entry, she has the clout to get material published in JAMA.

    So far, not one shred of evidence that more BSNs equate to better patient outcomes has been presented by an unbiased source. The only information we've been given is from those who benefit from increasing enrollments in four year nursing programs. Now why would anyone think those people would present biased information? I'm just wondering if their bonuses are determined strictly by the number of nurses they can deceive into running back to school.

    You have to love it. This racket is almost as ludicrous as the "new and improved" product scam of the 70s.
  12. Visit  BostonFNP profile page
    0
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    You mean JAMA, the organization that lets all readers know from the get-go that articles published do not reflect official views of the AMA: " However, according to JAMA, articles in it "do not reflect the official policy of the American Medical Association...."(Medicinenet.com). There's no doubt that Aiken and her colleagues have some clout. And with funding and backing from organizations such as the ANA, IOM, AACN as well as others committed to BSN entry, she has the clout to get material published in JAMA.

    So far, not one shred of evidence that more BSNs equate to better patient outcomes has been presented by an unbiased source. The only information we've been given is from those who benefit from increasing enrollments in four year nursing programs. Now why would anyone think those people would present biased information? I'm just wondering if their bonuses are determined strictly by the number of nurses they can deceive into running back to school.

    You have to love it. This racket is almost as ludicrous as the "new and improved" product scam of the 70s.
    If wishes were horses..

    The articles in JAMA do NOT always reflect the AMA views: it is a peer-reviewed journal. You seem to not understand what that means.

    I suspect that you would have some sort of wild conspiracy theory for any study that disproved your vehement argument.

    Yet again, a challenge: kindly enlighten us on the flaws and bias in the said publication.
  13. Visit  nursel56 profile page
    2
    Quote from dt70
    Do you think that the difference between an ADN and a BSN are just "management" classes?
    No, I do not. I asked the question because I wanted to hear an answer in regards to actual benefit the patient achieves from a Bsn degree nurse.

    The hospitals I was a patient at only had RN and first name on the badges, so there is no way for me to grade the nurses based on their degree.

    At this time, I want to pursue a career change as a nurse. I am moving to a new state and will not pay out of state tuition for an undergraduate degree. So, I have plenty of time for research on entry options and goals.
    I think in today's employment market you are better off getting your BSN regardless of those issues, because we are in a seller's market and most likely will be for some time to come.

    Quote from BostonFNP
    If wishes were horses..

    The articles in JAMA do NOT always reflect the AMA views: it is a peer-reviewed journal. You seem to not understand what that means.

    I suspect that you would have some sort of wild conspiracy theory for any study that disproved your vehement argument.

    Yet again, a challenge: kindly enlighten us on the flaws and bias in the said publication.
    I posted a bunch of links on the previous page. It's significant to me that among others saying the same thing, the 2010 IOM report recommends setting a goal of 80% BSN-educated nurses by 2020 but added “The causal relationship between the academic degree obtained by RNs and patient outcomes is not conclusive in the research literature”.
    HazelLPN and gummi bear like this.
  14. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    1
    You don't seem to understand common sense logic. What I'm saying is that just because a bunch of like-minded people gave a thumbs-up to another's research who has the funding and backing of organizations with similar views and has enough clout to have it published in JAMA, does not mean it is to be taken as Gospel.

    Are you going to next tell me that one needs a doctorate with evidence-based research to conclude that standing in the rain will get you wet? You're only proving the point that the longer one spends in the fantasy work of academia, the more out of touch with reality they become. They better hope admissions into four year BSN programs increase and that federal budget cuts don't result in the downsizing of their departments, because they don't stand a chance in the real working world. You see, outside of academia, companies expect quantifiable results, not theories and propaganda which has so far all we've been given by these academic elitists.
    Szasz_is_Right likes this.


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