ADN vs. BSN for Entry Level Nursing - page 7

The new push is for all nurses to be baccalaureate prepared, eliminating the 2 year associate degree program. Given the current and future nursing shortage, what is your opinion?... Read More

  1. Visit  lauralassie profile page
    0
    Quote from caroladybelle
    Actually Tim, Hospital at UPenn (which includes CHOP) I believe has pushed for an all BSN or higher nursing staff. If it isn't already, I would be surprised. I also do not know whether ADN/Diplomas that had been long standing employees were "parented" in. It was a big controversy when I left my assignment at HUPenn.

    On the unit that I worked, the staff ate new nurses, med students and interns with a vengence. But notably throughout the facility, nurses did hold "greater" nursing power than in many places...certainly more than your standard "customer service" oriented community facility.

    However, three of the best facilities at which I have been, it has been made clear that a nurse is valued for her skills and knowledge, and degree differences were not an issue. All three ranked higher in the national ratings of hospitals. One was Johns Hopkins. And in those, there was substantially less "nurse eating" going on. Probably it paid better, but thestaff did not seem to note degree differences despite BSN being on the name tag.

    You know , I remember the days that there was a ginormous discussion about Osteopathic Dr's and MD. Was one better then the other, were DO's just MD flunkies, DO's arn't trained like MD's. DO's , do weird medicine, I wouldn't send a dog to a DO. Heck, I remember that our intensivist at a major level 1 trauma center in Ohio didn't put his title on his lab coat because it would cause him more greif than it was worth. (he was a DO). Now , in Ohio at least, every one is equal, I havn't heard a pt ask if their DR is a MD of DO. It was the same debate as this nursing BS. Now hospitals do not differentiate between the two. DO's go to what used to be primarily MD hospitals and MD's go to what used to be DO hospitals. The real question is how well are pt's cared for, if a DO has manipualtion courses and an MD has some other sort of class, who cares. They both get paid the same do the same job and are both respected. Don't know about you, I don't care if an cardiac surg. had a class in why tulips are red or yellow. I want to know how his pt out comes are and how many ssurg's he did before he opens my chest. That's the bottom line for most pt's as well.
    Last edit by lauralassie on Mar 13, '07
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  3. Visit  RNsRWe profile page
    0
    Quote from jjjoy
    I didn't see the comment being referred to here as including a "dismissal of ALL state college programs."
    Ok, but apparently I did, which is why I made the comment.

    Community colleges may offer coursework that is fully transferrable to and of equal quality to a university (some CC's surpass uni's in quality of courses), but they are not universities. They do not offer all of the coursework required to earn a bachelor's degree. That is why you have to transfer from the CC (apply and be accepted to the uni) in order to earn a bachelor's degree. Thus, the poster you are referring is not incorrect to state that "two year colleges are not part of a state university system."
    Guess it depends on the State. That assertion is quite incorrect when discussing NYS, as I said previously. The letterhead, public handouts and miscellaneous materials that go with advertising on my alma mater say distinctly "SUNY _____ Community College, a Unit of the State University of New York". One must apply to transfer credits to one of the 4-year schools, but one must also do the same if requesting transfer from one 4-year school to another 4-year school. Applications are required in either case, and frankly may be rejected in either case. Simply having an application process to move one's credits from one "unit" to another does not eliminate it from the State university system. It is part of the same, at least in THIS State, which is why I told the quoted poster that I didn't know how her neighboring States did it, but it WAS an incorrect blanket assumption.
  4. Visit  lindarn profile page
    0
    Quote from lauralassie
    You know , I remember the days that there was a ginormous discussion about Osteopathic Dr's and MD. Was one better then the other, were DO's just MD flunkies, DO's arn't trained like MD's. DO's , do weird medicine, I wouldn't send a dog to a DO. Heck, I remember that our intensivist at a major level 1 trauma center in Ohio didn't put his title on his lab coat because it would cause him more greif than it was worth. (he was a DO). Now , in Ohio at least, every one is equal, I havn't heard a pt ask if their DR is a MD of DO. It was the same debate as this nursing BS. Now hospitals do not differentiate between the two. DO's go to what used to be primarily MD hospitals and MD's go to what used to be DO hospitals. The real question is how well are pt's cared for, if a DO has manipualtion courses and an MD has some other sort of class, who cares. They both get paid the same do the same job and are both respected. Don't know about you, I don't care if an cardiac surg. had a class in why tulips are red or yellow. I want to know how his pt out comes are and how many ssurg's he did before he opens my chest. That's the bottom line for most pt's as well.
    But ALL DOCTORS AND OSTEOPATHS GRADUATED FROM A FOUR YEAR UNDERGRAD PROGRAM PROGRAM AND A FOUR YEAR MEDICAL OR OSTEOPATH SCHOOL. That is the difference. Nurses graduate from two year ADN programs, 2-3 year diploma programs, or four year BSN programs. The length of the programs are the make education difference, so you are comparing apples to oranges.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washingto
  5. Visit  lauralassie profile page
    0
    Not so, DO's actually go to school longer than MD's . If you actually sit atnd look at class time , internship etc,,, DO's do more time. But, they get payed the same. Besides, all I was really saying was that this discussion is getting old. The physicians are able to work for a solution better than nurses seem to. Who would of thunk ! ADN's go almost 3 years unless they really do some cramming, Diploma go almost 4 years (usually 1 quarter short of), and 4 years get summers off so talk about comparing fruit. There are so many programs out there, we all take the same federal exam, we all do the same job. I'm a diploma nurse, was just offered a job that presents pros, improv. to hospitals, talks to ER directors ,CEO"S and Admin , travel around the state 4-5 days a week , high profile job, lots involved, sounded soooo... interesting. They said my qualifacations exceeded anyone they had found yet. I was going to take the job but my husband and I decided we couldn't afford a 23 thou. $/yr. pay cut. because our daughters are in school. So someone else took the job, a MSN nurse. Her pay is the same. She has done nursing education, research. The company said they wish they could have hired me because she has book work experience but little true clinical experience. They wanted to know if I would re-consider to come on board and help her. I guess when she presents to CEO's and Dr's they make mince meat of her. I'm just saying when are we going to look at job preformance rather than what looks good on paper.
    Last edit by lauralassie on Mar 14, '07
  6. Visit  jjjoy profile page
    0
    Community colleges are
    Quote from RNsRWe
    part of the same, at least in THIS State, which is why I told the quoted poster that I didn't know how her neighboring States did it, but it WAS an incorrect blanket assumption.
    It's interesting how NYS structures their public higher education. It looks like it all post-high school programs are administered under the State University of New York, including technical colleges and certificate programs. So I think we're all correct. Community colleges aren't universities as the term is generally understood and in New York, community colleges are part of the SUNY system.

    http://www.suny.edu/Student/academic_degree_certs.cfm
  7. Visit  leesespieces profile page
    0
    I'm sure my post will sound like many others since this is a topic that is discussed over and over again..and doesn't seem like the debate will simmer anytime soon! But I feel like I have to put my two cents in

    I don't understand why people seem to get so angry and heated over "which degree is better". We are all nurses and it's really more important that we band together and try to change the things we can about nursing. Our profession is not going to get the respect it deserves if we can't manange to get along.

    I think the question of who comes out better prepared for entry level nursing has a great deal more to do with the institution of learning in question rather than the length of time of the program.

    I am about to graduate from an ADN program in a few weeks. I am not of the position that ADN programs are better than BSN programs. The school I go to has an excellent reputation and we've been told time and time again from recruiters and educators at our clinical sites that they love hiring new grads from our school because our grads are so well-prepared.

    I fully intend on continuing on with school once I decide where I want to specialize. I will go on for my MSN ultimately. I believe that continuing education is critical.

    There is only so much nursing school can teach about each area of nursing. A large part of nursing I think is learned through experience, something that can't be taught in lecture nor gained through limited clinical experiences. There is such a difference between "textbook nursing" and "real-world nursing". For the sake of lecture exams and boards we have to be taught textbook nursing and instructors hesistate to teach the real-world nursing component in fear of confusing us when it comes time for boards. Makes for a rough transition one we're out in the real world!

    Anyway, I don't see any evidence that either degree is so superior to the other or that one has such major deficits that it needs to be such a huge issue. It almost seems to me that this topic is a scapegoat for the real causes for the huge mess nursing is in today.

    I don't mean to nor do I intend to offend anyone. Just want to put that out there. We all work hard for our degrees and we all deserve respect and recognition as nurses.
  8. Visit  RNsRWe profile page
    0
    Quote from jjjoy
    Community colleges are


    It's interesting how NYS structures their public higher education. It looks like it all post-high school programs are administered under the State University of New York, including technical colleges and certificate programs. So I think we're all correct. Community colleges aren't universities as the term is generally understood and in New York, community colleges are part of the SUNY system.

    http://www.suny.edu/Student/academic_degree_certs.cfm
    hey, thanks for taking the time to look into what I was talking about, it's appreciated

    I guess, based on what I'm reading, it's not the usual system. Something I did NOT know, but learned when following your link, was that the "technical college" I keep hearing about as though it were dirt under the last rung of the educational ladder also has programs that award a bachelor's degree! I never actually knew of any technical colleges; there must not be any near me. There's a vocational school, but it's not a SUNY school; it has LPN programs, as well as cosmetology and automotive, computer tech, etc.

    Anyway, I thought it interesting that bachelor's degrees are not ALWAYS "university" degrees, as most would assume (including myself).

    I can only imagine that new debate, lol: "my university bachelor's is better than your technical college bachelor's"!
  9. Visit  Nelly0602 profile page
    0
    My head is spinning :spin: after reading through some of the posts regarding ADN vs. BSN. I am seeking a bit of advice here. I am 30 years old with a B.A. in Journalism and a successful career in medical device sales. I am debating between an accelerated BSN program (16 months- and a lot more money) and a 4 semester nursing program (but I already have all the prerequisites completed through my B.A.- so is it just a one year program for me??) I am just beginning to research this career path so bear with me here. I am considering nursing because I like the idea of having a flexible schedule and the ability to work on a contractual basis. I am starting to think about having a family and I am not sure that I can be a full-time mommy-money and sanity wise! A career in nursing would allow me to work as I choose while kids are young, and perhaps return to medical sales (a lot more marketable to boot) at a later date. So for my purposes...
    Does a 1-2(?) program in nursing allow me the same career options as a BSN pay-wise/responsibility (particularly in the first 5 years or so?) or put another way, will a BSN be worth the time and money given my intentions? Thanks for any help or suggestions!
  10. Visit  ZASHAGALKA profile page
    0
    Quote from Nelly0602
    My head is spinning :spin: after reading through some of the posts regarding ADN vs. BSN. I am seeking a bit of advice here. I am 30 years old with a B.A. in Journalism and a successful career in medical device sales. I am debating between an accelerated BSN program (16 months- and a lot more money) and a 4 semester nursing program (but I already have all the prerequisites completed through my B.A.- so is it just a one year program for me??) I am just beginning to research this career path so bear with me here. I am considering nursing because I like the idea of having a flexible schedule and the ability to work on a contractual basis. I am starting to think about having a family and I am not sure that I can be a full-time mommy-money and sanity wise! A career in nursing would allow me to work as I choose while kids are young, and perhaps return to medical sales (a lot more marketable to boot) at a later date. So for my purposes...
    Does a 1-2(?) program in nursing allow me the same career options as a BSN pay-wise/responsibility (particularly in the first 5 years or so?) or put another way, will a BSN be worth the time and money given my intentions? Thanks for any help or suggestions!
    The accelerated programs ARE BSN programs. You would have your BSN from one of those programs AND complete it in the quickest manner possible for entry into nursing. In your situation, your first choice should be an accelerated BSN program. For you, that program would likely be the least investment in time and money. Those abbreviated programs are normally not alot more money when you consider that longer programs are going to cost you more money over the course of many more semesters. In fact, I would imagine that they would be cheaper, all things considered (books, fees over many more semesters, loss of productivity while in school, etc.)

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Mar 16, '07
  11. Visit  zenman profile page
    0
    Quote from lauralassie
    Not so, DO's actually go to school longer than MD's . If you actually sit atnd look at class time , internship etc,,, DO's do more time. [/B][/I][/U]
    Actually, the DOs just have slightly more class time in manipulation techiques, which many do not use after graduation. Internship and residency is the same as for MDs, at least according to the MD and the DO I work with. You'll find MDs and DOs doing the exact same residencies at the same location.
  12. Visit  Tweety profile page
    0
    Quote from zenman
    Actually, the DOs just have slightly more class time in manipulation techiques, which many do not use after graduation. Internship and residency is the same as for MDs, at least according to the MD and the DO I work with. You'll find MDs and DOs doing the exact same residencies at the same location.

    We have a hospital here that takes only DO residents. However, where I work we take both, without differences in their residency.
  13. Visit  tencents profile page
    0
    My mother has been a nurse for over 25 years...this debate and so called "push" to do away with ADN was going on when she went to nursing school in the early 80s. I understand the thinking of most people, that having a nurse w/BSN somehow means that he/she is better equiped than a ADN. I don't agree with this at all. Especially with the nursing shortage, which will only increase with babyboomers retiring and needing more medical assitance.
    My step-sister is graduating soon w/her BSN, after working as a RN for a few years. They only thing she learned was how to do paperwork...this is coming from her! Her clinicals were worthless as far as learning new information, experiences, etc.
    The wait lists for BSN & ADN programs as insane, and once you are accepted...2 year programs more times than not, turn into 2.5 or 3 years.

    My point being here....nurses are needed and will continue to be needed. The best experiences and learning takes place after nursing school...this is what the 5 nurses in my family have said...so I tend to take their word for it. Additional time in an undergrad DO NOT make a better nurse.
  14. Visit  mstigerlily profile page
    1
    Quote from pattycakebaby
    The new push is for all nurses to be baccalaureate prepared, eliminating the 2 year associate degree program. Given the current and future nursing shortage, what is your opinion?
    I do believe RNs should have a bachelor's degree, specifically in nursing, however if they have one in another field, an ADN is adequate until they can complete the BSN degree, but I believe they should have to eventually complete that too. We already have a level for "practical" or "technical" or "vocational" nurses and that is the LVN/LPN which is also a nurse, and a perfectly reasonable option for those who can't afford or can't complete a bachelor's level program.
    lindarn likes this.


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