The Circumcision Discussion - page 75

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. Visit  lamazeteacher profile page
    0
    Quote from Baby Lady's post : "I am SO with you on the fact that in some areas, cultures shouldn't be circumcising anyone (male or female), even for religious reasons, unless pain control is used or the procedure can be performed clean."

    Jews have anaesthetized male infants for circumcision with wine (not to unconsciousness), throughout their history. Also the ritual "briss" (a party during which a circumcision is done with granbdad holding the infant, by a well trained holy person, on the 8th day of life, as long as the baby is well, then) is a happy occasion. I've been to many of them, and always admired the modern, aseptic techniques. I also appreciated the feelings in the room of love for the baby, which I think are responsible for his having less crying during the procedure (than those in the hospital), and quick return to calm. Meanwhile attendees munch on honey cake and other sweets prepared by family and friends. Not even the most attention seeking, obnoxious attendee would suggest that he/she is in disagreement with circumcision.

    I agree that pain relief is important, and recommend the application of EMLA patches on top of the vaseline dressing, to forestall what must be a burning type of pain when the baby urinates. Frequent breast feeding or giving water between bottle feedings will dilute the urine, making it less concentrated and therefore causing less pain.

    Believe me, you'll never convince practising Jews that circumcision should be avoided! It is a part of the "Covenant with God". There have been no reports of life threatening infections due to circumcision, (when done as described above)and the Bible (Old Testament) has no reference to illness following a "briss".

    Just as any procedure done to a child must be approved by his parents, that is so for circumcision. When parents disagree, it might be best if counselling occur (my vote would be by a marriage and family one) to allow them to examine facts and feelings and come to an agreement each can live with.
  2. Visit  lamazeteacher profile page
    0
    You are entitled to your opinion, and those who wish to have their sons circumcised have to be respected, too.
  3. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    0
    Quote from lamazeteacher
    Quote from Baby Lady's post : "I am SO with you on the fact that in some areas, cultures shouldn't be circumcising anyone (male or female), even for religious reasons, unless pain control is used or the procedure can be performed clean."

    Jews have anaesthetized male infants for circumcision with wine (not to unconsciousness), throughout their history. Also the ritual "briss" (a party during which a circumcision is done with granbdad holding the infant, by a well trained holy person, on the 8th day of life, as long as the baby is well, then) is a happy occasion. I've been to many of them, and always admired the modern, aseptic techniques. I also appreciated the feelings in the room of love for the baby, which I think are responsible for his having less crying during the procedure (than those in the hospital), and quick return to calm. Meanwhile attendees munch on honey cake and other sweets prepared by family and friends. Not even the most attention seeking, obnoxious attendee would suggest that he/she is in disagreement with circumcision.

    I agree that pain relief is important, and recommend the application of EMLA patches on top of the vaseline dressing, to forestall what must be a burning type of pain when the baby urinates. Frequent breast feeding or giving water between bottle feedings will dilute the urine, making it less concentrated and therefore causing less pain.

    Believe me, you'll never convince practising Jews that circumcision should be avoided! It is a part of the "Covenant with God". There have been no reports of life threatening infections due to circumcision, (when done as described above)and the Bible (Old Testament) has no reference to illness following a "briss".

    Just as any procedure done to a child must be approved by his parents, that is so for circumcision. When parents disagree, it might be best if counselling occur (my vote would be by a marriage and family one) to allow them to examine facts and feelings and come to an agreement each can live with.
    Uh...I never stated in any of my posts that I disagreed with the practice of Jewish circumcisions, however, it doesn't matter how many thousands of years the procedure has been performed..pain is pain.

    My statement was in response to (if you read the post that I responded to) was a response to areas where crude and unsanitary instruments are used to perform a circumcision.

    However, on a side note, If you are stating that there has never, in the history of medicine, an infant that did not get an infection from a Jewish briss, then I would say that would not be a medical fact and I wouldn't use the Bible as medical evidence that it's impossible or even improbable, no matter what religion you are.

    "Less crying" isn't better than "no crying"...I have had the opportunity to witness, many, many circumcisions where the infant not only didn't cry, but didn't even flinch....have you ever been to a Jewish briss and saw that?

    Here is an article on pain in newborns, pain assessment in newborns, and the old beliefs that used to be "medical fact" that we now know are no longer true.

    http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatch...atal_pain.html

    Even the "female genital mutilations" in Africa are seen as a happy occasion because they are considered a rite-of-passage into womanhood...but the fact that they hold these girls down and cut them with crude objects in the name of "tradition" make it right to continue to do it in this manner?

    I'll agree, I'll never convince a practicing Jew not to circumcise their infant. However, even Jewish folks are still parents, and the job of a parent is to protect your child, first and foremost...dismissing pain control (FULL pain control..not half-way, not part-of-the-way, FULL pain control) is what is barbaric about the practice...not the circumcision itself.

    Just because the little guy can't speak for himself, doesn't invalidate what he feels.
  4. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    1
    Quote from lamazeteacher
    You are entitled to your opinion, and those who wish to have their sons circumcised have to be respected, too.
    My son is circumcised, again, if you read my post.

    He also had full pain control when it was performed.
    lamazeteacher likes this.
  5. Visit  firstyearstudent profile page
    2
    To me, the issue of whether pain control is used when people are making permanent, unnecessary alterations to another persons genitals is only a small part of the equation. I don't get people who think circ with anesthetic is a-okay but think circ without is an evil. The baby will get over the pain and probably even any trauma caused by the experience. The circumcision, however, is permanent. If I had to make a theoretical choice to have my son undergo the pain of a unanesthtetized circumcision and get to magically keep his foreskin, or have his foreskin magically disappear without any pain or even his knowledge, I'd pick the former! No question. Pain isn't that big of deal to me. In the right circumstances, it can even be growth promoting. (Violence, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.)

    I guess when it comes down to it, we can only use the golden rule when making these kind of decisions and, if I was a man, I don't think I would have wanted my parents to circumcise me. I'd rather make up my own mind about it based on facts and my own preferences, not theirs. Circ can be performed at any time in a person's life. There's no reason it has to be done when the person is an an infant. I don't think it's more traumatic for a consenting adult. (If it is, I think we ought to be questioning why we perform a procedure an adult would find unthinkable on a child.) Perhaps circ on an infant would be less sexual damaging than circ on an adult since sexual response could be rewired better, so maybe circing an an infant over an adult would be preferable if it was necessary or highly benefital. It may be more traumatic for an young boy, but the odds that you will need to get a little boy circumcised, say for a medical reason, are too rare to perform this procedure prophylactically in infancy.

    I guess why most people have it done is because they believe that the foreskin is unimportant and unnecessary (based on the fact that a circumicized penis functions and that circumcized men seem to enjoy sex as much as uncircumcized men, I suppose) and that removing it can be painless and provide a small medical benefit or a cultural benefit, so why not do it on a baby who will never know the difference and it will only take a few minutes, especially if insurance is paying for it. But, personally, I cannot get see how a piece of tissue which is that sensitive cannot be a significant benefit in sexual functioning. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it isn't. But I just don't know, so I didn't want to remove healthy, sensitive tissue from my sons' penises that may be as much or more of a benefit to them than a risk (in a first world country, at least).

    Many people think circumcising older boys as part of a "rite of passage" into manhood is more cruel, but that actually seems less cruel to me. At least it is something the boy is participating in (even if not necessarily consenting to) and has some cultural meaning for him at the time (as opposed to a day's old infant who is completely passive).

    One poster suggested that female circumcision on women is different from male circumcision because female circumcision was originally performed with the intention of curbing female sexuality. But I have heard that this is one likely reason that male circumcision was originally performed.
    Last edit by firstyearstudent on Feb 23, '09
    JanisM and Elvish like this.
  6. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    3
    Quote from firstyearstudent
    to me, the issue of whether pain control is used when people are making permanent, unnecessary alterations to another persons genitals is only a small part of the equation. i don't get people who think circ with anesthetic is a-okay but think circ without is an evil. the baby will get over the pain and probably even any trauma caused by the experience. the circumcision, however, is permanent. if i had to make a theoretical choice to have my son undergo the pain of a unanesthtetized circumcision and get to magically keep his foreskin, or have his foreskin magically disappear without any pain or even his knowledge, i'd pick the former! no question. pain isn't that big of deal to me. in the right circumstances, it can even be growth promoting. (violence, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.)
    .

    i'm not quite sure what you mean by the blue above.

    no anesthesia circ and somehow magically keeps the foreskin . . ?

    anyway - i used many examples with my first husband regarding pain because he had the same reaction . . "the baby won't remember the pain".

    i said "well, then we can burn him with cigarettes because he won't remember it" or "it is ok if we break his arm because he won't remember it", etc.

    just because someone won't remember the pain, doesn't make it ok to inflict pain.

    the one doc we have who won't use anesthetic tells a story of a baby who lost his penis due to an injection of lidocaine . . so this doc makes a decision based on an extremely rare occurrence.

    and i still would refuse to help this guy.

    i don't think circs are necessary but i won't chastise those parents who chose to have it done, with proper pain control.

    (i also don't like piercing babies ears . . . . what is the point of that?? plus, you cheat little girls of the fun of having their ears pierced as a young teen . . i loved that time - it was a rite of passage into adulthood. )

    steph
  7. Visit  firstyearstudent profile page
    2
    I don't know, maybe I'm just not being clear. I guess what I am trying to convey is that I think losing your foreskin is worse for a person than having circumcision pain. Pain is temporary, the foreskin is gone forever.
    hypocaffeinemia and Elvish like this.
  8. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    0
    Quote from firstyearstudent
    I don't know, maybe I'm just not being clear. I guess what I am trying to convey is that I think losing your foreskin is worse for a person than having circumcision pain. Pain is temporary, the foreskin is gone forever.
    I'm a female...so obviously I can't speak for how men feel about their "boy".

    I have just never heard of or read an article where a man wished he had never been circumcised (assuming there was no damage or done when he was older, etc).

    The few guys that I have known that have mentioned it, ranked it with the importance of "I have brown hair, blue eyes, and I'm circ'd."

    I'm not saying that is the case for every guy...not at all.
  9. Visit  Elvish profile page
    0
    I don't go around asking random strangers about it, but I have met several men who wished they had been allowed to make the choice for themselves rather than have the choice taken from them as newborns. (I work in OB, so this kind of stuff often comes up in conversation....and I work with a male secretary who is quite vocal about this.)

    I think it comes down (in many cases, at least) to what someone is used to. If you've never had a foreskin that you remember, you might not know nor care about what you're missing....and if you've got one, you might or might not feel strongly about it being removed.
  10. Visit  GooeyRN profile page
    2
    There are a lot of men who wish they were never circ'd. They go through great measures to attempt to restore their foreskin.
    Smurfette752 and Elvish like this.
  11. Visit  firstyearstudent profile page
    0
    Quote from BabyLady
    The few guys that I have known that have mentioned it, ranked it with the importance of "I have brown hair, blue eyes, and I'm circ'd."

    I'm not saying that is the case for every guy...not at all.
    And men who are uncircumicized are usually horrified at the very idea and say they can't imagine what it would be like... I think I'm more impressed by what they say, then the circumcised. They have no idea what it's like to have a foreskin.

    There are plenty of folks in the deaf community who also think hearing isn't such a big deal because they get around fine and lead full lives, and women who have been circumcised who also think it isn't such a big deal. All the same, I'll keep my cochleas and my clitoris.
  12. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    0
    Quote from Elvish
    Hey...we're not loggers and we (well, they) still pee outside. Especially the little one. The 36yo, not so much.
    Even now they have contests to see who can get to the bathroom the fastest and who can be done peeing first. But I digress.....
    .

    I had to come back to this Elvish - today we hiked at a park with a waterfall and my husband and 2 sons had to pee while we were hiking . . they walked off the trail a bit and pee'd together.

    My son's girlfriend and I were jealous . .. . it is a bit harder for us and the path was icy and snowy - hard to squat.

    Regardless of circ'd or not - boys are lucky when it comes to peeing.

    steph
  13. Visit  Elvish profile page
    1
    Quote from Spidey's mom
    Regardless of circ'd or not - boys are lucky when it comes to peeing.
    :yeahthat:
    I swear sometimes my son looks for excuses - like he'll wait til someone's in the bathroom so he can run outside just to pee. Doesn't matter that it's freezing outside. Oh yeah, and since we don't get much snow around here, when it finally did snow (Inauguration day, actually), it was the greatest thing for him to pee in the snow. We're not at the writing-your-name stage yet.....

    Ok, back to the regularly scheduled thread.
    Spidey's mom likes this.


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