Healthcare is NOT a basic human right. - page 31
If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from... Read More
4Oct 5, '12 by withasmilelpnQuote from sapphire18I AGREE -don't understand how people can be so uncaring. Say we stop providing emergency care when someone is in a car accident - it's not a right - correct? No proof of ability to pay - no care - never mind that you are unconscious, just hurry up and die... A little suffering is good for the soul???I feel that the fight against universal healthcare is a very uncaring and selfish one.
If we have the ability to help others- to SAVE THEIR LIVES...we should do so. Every life is worthy.
It's uncivilized. And it used to happen that hospitals turned away people, even in emergency situations before laws were enacted requiring emergency rooms to treat. No proof of ability to pay = no care. Is this what we should return to?
Or should we pick and choose; routine health care is not a right, emergency health care is? Most people opt to continue offering emergency care when faced with the consequences of not providing it.
The problem with that sort of theory is that people without routine health care often end up in our very expensive emergency care system, unable to pay anyway for things that could've been prevented in the first place a lot cheaper.
It bothers me also that our system is geared towards working people and that once you can't work due to illness you're no longer of value. Insurance is obtained through work, work that requires full time hours. (Part time - out of luck to obtain insurance unless you're married or a dependent. Of course you could buy insurance, however its unlikely that you'll be able to afford it with your part time hours. And there is a high increase in the number of part time jobs as opposed to full time with benefits these days - another thing to consider.)
Insurance premiums must be paid, regardless if your in the hospital fighting cancer and no longer bringing in income. Can't come up with the $ to pay it - not our problem - just do your family a favor and die already. You're a drain on society.
Lose your job, again your option is to take advantage of COBRA and purchase your former insurance at a much higher rate. Somehow you're to purchase this with no income maybe or while receiving unemployment at a sharply reduced income that you had previously. (You have to be eligible as well, employed long enough prior to qualify, btw.)
I also have to point out that insurance in no way guarantees that a person is safe from going bankrupt. A foundation I contribute to that raises money for people in need of $ to cover their medical costs pointed out that 80% of it's members had insurance. Many were in danger of losing everything they had worked for all their lives. Something is seriously wrong with that!
And don't get me started on the mentally ill homeless population that our country has.
Healthcare for all just makes sense. Healthy people equal productive people. (And to those that carp on and on about the waiting for care in countries that have universal health care, we wait here too. I know because I make the appointments.)
We might as well just be a third world country without it.
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1It is hard to not let emotions get in the way of our decision making. We all have situations where we see suffering and unfairness. Not everything is "ponies, puppies and butterflies". It is a harsh world. This is a complex situation but I still feel that the federal gov't in this country is not capable of handling such a huge issue.
The fear of people travelling to different states to find work, to find healthcare etc, has not been substantiated in large numbers.
Think of the states that have harsh weather, that have low populations in rural areas like North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming etc.
People stay in states because they have interests there or have family there. We have people in Appalachia who stay in that area despite opportunities elsewhere. Why? Various reasons. I'm not concerned with this unfounded fear.
I'm more concerned with the implementation of the ACA in 2014. Paying taxes for 4 years prior to implementation. Federal Gov't fining those who choose not to have insurance, increasing the number of IRS agents to implement the fines, not enough doctors to see the increase patient load expected, not to mention nurses to staff the units. The gov't has started planning for their part, but the private sector has no idea-just speculation on how it will effect them and the latest report from the CMS is that they underestimated the penalties/no reimbursements for hospital re-admissions. Legislators passed this without reading it.
The ACA will not benefit people any more than what we have now. We'll still wait, we'll see sicker people, have less resources, can expect increased numbers of readmissions due to the complexity of their illnesses, and will not have enough medical personnel to answer the demand. If you have a pre-existing illness, you'll be able to get insurance, but the premiums will be high. Why? Because insurance companies don't give handouts. They have to make a profit, invest money, etc, in order to pay out large claims. It's no different if you choose to live on a floodplain or hurricane zone. You can get insurance, but you'll be paying a huge amount of money to live in a high risk area. Insurance is all about risk and probability. We pay "just in case" we get sick. Years go by you pay, and you may not ever need it. I would suggest looking into a life insurance policy that you can use as an advantage plan if you have a chronic illness-no one suggests that. But that is a possibility and if I had a family member with cancer or any other dreaded chronic disease, that would be step one.
I know hospitals are closing doors, consolidating resources, cutting costs, using cheaper supplies, hiring less experienced personnel to have bodies and cut the cost of salaries. etc. They will and the clinics will too, find solutions to stay solvent. This is a business, not a charity.
3Oct 5, '12 by ParkerBC,MSN,RNThis thread is an example of why nothing gets accomplished. There will always be a debate on this very topic. We all have opinions, but the topic at hand is so much more complex than being presented. I will admit that I don’t know the answer. What I do know is that we are currently borrowing against the nation’s line of credit to continue financing programs. In other words, we are spending more than we are receiving in tax revenue. Anyone with a basic understanding of finance should realize that this is a problem.
I feel people, regardless of socioeconomic backgrounds, should have access to healthcare. However, is our country at a point where we can realistically afford this? I have not researched it, but some of you have indicated that those countries who offer national healthcare have high taxes. Is this something that is feasible in the nation’s current condition? Could it potentially bankrupt the country? Where is the country’s breaking point? These are important questions to ask. If our country goes bankrupt, each of us will be in the same position; poor. If that happens, will you say it was worth having universal healthcare? Don’t misunderstand me, I am compassionate and wish that everyone could have equal access, but I also worry about whether or not doing so will expose the majority of Americans (middle class) to undue hardships. Our country does not have unlimited resources.
I do think universal healthcare will create competition among the private insurance companies. That competition, in my opinion, will lead to lower premium pricing. Why? If I am offered health insurance through my employer and it is $200.00/month and I can obtain similar coverage through the government for $105.00/month, which option do you think I would choose? The other positive is that if I left my employer, I would not be required to pay the ridiculous COBRA premiums. I would continue being responsible for the $105.00/month.
I do think people should be held responsible for contributing to their healthcare premiums and co-pays even if that means paying $1.00. No more scripts for Ibuprofen 800mg. People can pay for it over the counter. There must be some sense of ownership. If not, the entitlement people exhibit today will only become worse. There also needs to be more stringent guidelines for entitlement programs. Furthermore, how much more can we continue to contribute to illegal’s healthcare? If an emergency, okay. While I can appreciate wanting to come to the states and starting a new life, there are laws that need to be followed. There is a process to immigrate. It took me a little over a year to become a citizen of Canada, although I am back in the states. Regardless, I did not cross the border and set up camp.
Again, I don’t have the answers but these are questions and thoughts I ponder.
2At the risk of sounding harsh and being taken out of context....... The comments made about people opposing the ACA are not accurate. I find people, that are willing to argue that what I have is theirs for taking, without even a thankyou, are the ones uncaring and selfish. It reminds me of when my kids were little and it'd be someone's bday and the other one would try to lay a guilt trip of "where's mine"! I am not opposed to helping out but you can't even call it helping out when the government has control. I am just a pawn for their disposal. I think it is pretty harsh to take the backbone of America to the next level and watch them toil away and never have a shimmer of hope. The poor still won't have any and now we've taken it from the next tier of society. How is that not selfish?
1Great that it work for you. One thing that is missing for many is a solid family, which means supportive relatives and/or friends plus who promote education. Family and immediate social network is Key 1 and and education Key 2. As you are starting now to deal with generations where a large population has neither Key 1 or 2, or only Key 1 (still a better chance) or Key 2, you have a problem. Healthcare is one part of the problem, but it is not the whole problem. I have taught kids and adults, and you can tell some of them will make it and some won't, but look at this: In parts with an overflooded employment market... bring jobs back!! well - that won't work.... or tell me how can you bring jobs in steal mining, coal mining or the assembly lines in the automobile industries back? These people will not find jobs in the computer industry or other jobs that are now needed because they don't have the schooling... They may not even feel comfortable working at computers or telemarketing, etc. ... bring jobs back from overseas!! ... seriously, the companies increased their profit margins hugely by taking them overseas ... so, that won't happen until those countries smarten up and raise their labor cost and as we made ourselves dependent on them (not only the US but also Europe), this will create a host of other problems.
So, just to say "I grew up poor and I made it," is nice for you, but other people may not be equipped with the stools you had, i.e. willpower, discipline, strive, etc. Some kids never see that in their surroundings or they see it is there but it won't help.
... one of my teachers in law way back told me that you must see society just like a family and neighborhood because that is exactly how they interact, so if the family does not function right, someone has to step in and has to put the foot down and say these are the changes we must make to do better.
2So we have a dysfunctional family and the federal government in all it's infinite wisdom has now become our family counselor?
Someone has to step in? You willing to interact in this dysfunction? Make the sacrifice?
Talk is cheap. Everyone talks about the sacrifice and the noble causes. When it comes down to you and yours and everyone else--I think you'll keep yours and finally decide that religion starts at home. Take care of yourself first then you can help others.
2I agree not all people have the drive and survival instincts. I also see the USA as breeding these individiuals. Elementary schools and even some parts of high school it is not politically correct to teach this, we have adopted a philosophy of everyone is a winner and it is creating a whole generation of "losers" (in the real world). I struggled and worked since I was old enough to have a weekly "shopper" route (weekly paper). I have frequently held 2-3 jobs at any given time. I did not have this drive to end up right where I started. So I continue to ascertain my right to do with my belongings (including my job and income) as I see fit.Last edit by toekneejo on Oct 5, '12 : Reason: Typo
0So do I, and I don't mind at all if I give up a little of what I have, even in my current position, to ensure that I (which I now don't) and other people in this country can afford to take care of their health.
0Oct 5, '12 by Susie2310Quote from toekneejo"Most of the opponents are aware there is a problem. They just aren't willing to support a problem that will not fix the healthcare and has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit."I have been reading these posts since the first page, it bothers me that two arguments continue to rear there ugly heads. The first being that of indivual sad experiences. As nurses I cannot believe that any nurse would be in favor of a person suffering for any reason. Yet, the proponents for ACA keep acting like that is what the opponents are saying. Most of the opponents , are aware there is a problem. They just aren't willing to support a problem that will not fix the healthcare and has the huge potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit. The second is that I have not seen one post from the proponents addressing the other concern to the opponents, which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are. I grew up a very poor girl. I'd share my story but I choose not to whine and get trapped in the "poor me" scenerio.
Have no clue what you are talking about in "support a problem that will not fix the healthcare . . ." What is the problem that you are speaking of? Do you consider the actuality of people receiving access to health care a problem? As far as "has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit", please explain the damage you think may potentially happen.
"The second is that I have not seen one post from the proponents addressing the other concern to the opponents, which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are."
Whether people work hard or not is not part of the health care discussion. Frankly, I think it is none of your (or my) business.
4Oct 5, '12 by uRNmywayHave any of you seen the video about college students who went around a campus to try a social experiment where everyone would share grades. Ie If you got an A and your buddy got an F because he has to work 2 jobs and is broke and has 3 kids he is trying to take care of (insert any other excuse here), then you both end up with a C. Most people who would support wealth redistribution sure balked real quick when there was the possibility their hard earned grades were shared, because, well I earned my grades.
Same goes with money when I earn it.
And before anyone says how its not the same in this context. You say a healthy population is important for productivity. Well, an educated population is also important. In fact, education usually plays a hand in health status.
But the point is that, when you remove the incentive to try, people try less.
For instance, in the case of the above mentioned social experiment.
Exam 1-Those who usually study hard, do so. Those who slack off, do so as well. Class average is B-.
Well now, those who studied are upset. Why did I stay up all night if I was not going to get the grade I earned? I might as well not try as hard.
Those who didn't study, well they think its awesome they can sit on their butts, do nothing, and get a good grade. They're gonna keep doing it.
Second exam-Group who usually studies a lot, well they study a little less. Their grades slip. Those who normally don't study, still don't. Class average, D.
Well now, everyone starts to accuse each other of not trying, of not caring for those who need help, who are less fortunate, who just can't do it on their own.
Final exam, no one tries, because its pointless. Everyone gets an F.
I am sure most of you has heard something similar to this in the past.
0[QUOTE=Susie2310;6971161]"Most of the opponents are aware there is a problem. They just aren't willing to support a problem that will not fix the healthcare and has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit."Have no clue what you are talking about in "support a problem that will not fix the healthcare . . ." What is the problem that you are speaking of? Do you consider the actuality of people receiving access to health care a problem? As far as "has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit", please explain the damage you think may potentially happen.
The ACA, in my opinion, will not fix the problem of the healthcare crisis in this country. We will go bankrupt and be sold to the highest bidder world wide (at an extreme possibility)"The second is that I have not seen one post from the proponents addressing the other concern to the opponents, which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are."Whether people work hard or not is not part of the health care discussion. Frankly, I think it is none of your (or my)
That would be true if I wasn't having to support them. Yes the argument that we are already doing this and so it would be more efficient (which I don't see due to less MDs more patients receiving more frivolous care, pvt. Insurance failing and others) doesn't ring true to me. Besides, the system we have now is based on a society giving charity. When I volunteer at a "soup kitchen" I don't eat. I do not want to participate in this and As its stands my right to refuse has been eliminated. Another thing that is being thrown around the water cooler I hear is " If my taxes continue like they say I'm quitting and going to get on the "Obama plan" myself. Then someone will state "yeah but I'm not that sorry yet". Why are so many people willing to give up their right to have a chance to reach for the stars, for the exchange of healthcare so that they can continue to work to have healthcare so they can continue to work to have.............. I don't don't see the positve to stay healthy just to work for the government and yes I know it isn't just healthcare - it all needs revamped.
3Currently, I continue to work and still don't have healthcare, and that is true for many people who cannot afford current insurance rates... I'm not talking about the unemployed. People with chronic illnesses or people with cancers to whom treatment is refused or people who are discharged before they are well enough because the insurance will not take longer...
2Trying to inspire others is a daunting task especially when the vast majority are a "prozac nation".
Consider the ACA as a introductory offer-just like a sales spiel.
Consider your individual choice to give up some of yours over a mandate to give up some of yours.
Consider being acutely aware and informed as much as is humanly possible out here in the fringes
Consider giving more to charity where your moneys can go to your interest group(s)
Consider taking a leadership role or serve on a board where you can be more aware of where money is going
Consider volunteering for a free clinic to help ease the burden on the middle class that will be mandated to give more of their earned salary to those "less fortunate"