Controversial Michael Moore Flick 'Sicko' Will Compare U.S. Health Care with Cuba's

sanctuary, BSN, MSN, RN · Sep 27, 2007

Y'ALL WATCH OR RECORD OPRAH TOMORROW - THURS., SEPT. 27, 2007 TO SEE MICHAEL MOORE ON HER SHOW, WITH A HEALTHCARE INSURANCE LOBBYIST, AND POSSIBLY CEO'S OF THOSE COMPANIES, DEFENDING THEIR OUTRAGEOUS PROFITS!!!!! THEN WE CAN EXCHANGE VIEWS ABOUT WHAT IS SAID, WITH MORE INFORMATION FROM DIFFERING VIEWPOINTS. I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT OPPORTUNITY, AND HOPE YOU'LL FLOOD OPRAH'S WEBSITE WITH YOUR REACTIONS!!!!!:welcome:

What a wonderful idea. :idea: Thanks for the heads up, and lets talk after the show.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Sep 27, 2007

Y'ALL WATCH OR RECORD OPRAH TOMORROW - THURS., SEPT. 27, 2007 TO SEE MICHAEL MOORE ON HER SHOW, WITH A HEALTHCARE INSURANCE LOBBYIST, AND POSSIBLY CEO'S OF THOSE COMPANIES, DEFENDING THEIR OUTRAGEOUS PROFITS!!!!! THEN WE CAN EXCHANGE VIEWS ABOUT WHAT IS SAID, WITH MORE INFORMATION FROM DIFFERING VIEWPOINTS. I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT OPPORTUNITY, AND HOPE YOU'LL FLOOD OPRAH'S WEBSITE WITH YOUR REACTIONS!!!!!:welcome:

I have no use for Oprah, her and Larry King and Jerry Springer. They are only for entertainment of the worst variety in my opinion

spydercadet · Sep 27, 2007

I think we need to clarify a couple of things. First, the evil corporate insurance companies, they don't set the cost of health care. We use Medicare as the "Gold Standard" and insurance companies work off of that. Those evil insurance corporations and their evil counter part - profits, are necessary. Inside of any insurance company you will have a high percentage of people who do not need continual high cost care and a smaller percentage who will need that high cost level. Those costs get spread out so that if you work in a larger company the impact won't be that bad, but if you work somewhere with, lets say 25 employees, each employee will feel the impact directly. However, if a person can not work due to illness the government does step in and that person may be eligible for SSDI and after two years on that they'd qualify for Medicare as their insurer.

Those profits that everyone points to with hatred, is what most of us will be retiring on. Many mutual funds, Ira's, etc... invest into all kinds of industries and insurance companies are often part of those investments. The insurance companies charge the amount they do because inside that insurer is a "shared responsibility" approach, share the costs equally between all participating members. But lets not forget our part in this nightmare everyone seems to think this is. What role do play and what effect is it having on the health care system. I seen more than one thread about having us unionize so we can get the wages we want and demand as nurses. Does anyone think the two aren't connected? And nurses aren't the only one's who want higher wages, think of everyone in all the various departments who feel very justified in demanding high wages. We also push to get the minimum wage up and in doing so we employers to take one of two options. First option for any employer may be to lay someone off, that increase in pay has to come from somewhere. In doing this we may have won in guaranteeing a higher minimum wage, but we also got someone else a pink slip. The other option that a company may do in response to the increased minimum wage is to pass the increased costs on to the consumer, which will put pressure to increase wages across the board, thus making the minimum wage ineffective right out of the gate. This is basic economics, and I know everybody is just in love with Europe, Canada, actually anywhere but here. Has anyone filed taxes or has talked to people from the various Utopia's that exist outside of the U.S. Be prepared to watch a very significant portion of income go to taxes, they when you purchase something you get the value added taxes applied to whatever it is. My Father-in-Law is German and does very well, he's in the 70% tax bracket. How many of you want to get up and go to work tomorrow and turn over 0.70 cents for every dollar you earn to the Federal Government. I don't think I want to work anymore if that happens. There really is a reason that America is called the economic engine of the world.

There are people right now developing new treatments, new drugs, new assertive devices all in hopes of making money. There is nothing inherently evil in wanting to make money. The drug companies have, for the 25 years I know of, worked to make sure people who need their medications get them regardless of the person ability to pay.

And I just have to say one more thing, just because someone says something many times and they say it loudly, it doesn't make it true. Really, I believe it was Churchill (the intelligent one, not the idiot in Colorado) who said, "A lie will be half way round the world while the truth is still putting his pants on."

And, by the way, we won in Vietnam, the media just didn't want us to so they repeated negative down beat stories until we had to leave. Please review the Tet Offensive, it did take a few weeks but North Vietnamese were on the run. Just please do some actual research and look at how things work now and what they will probably look like if "your changes" were put into action.

allnurses Guide · Sep 27, 2007

I think we need to clarify a couple of things. First, the evil corporate insurance companies, they don't set the cost of health care. We use Medicare as the "Gold Standard" and insurance companies work off of that. Those evil insurance corporations and their evil counter part - profits, are necessary. Inside of any insurance company you will have a high percentage of people who do not need continual high cost care and a smaller percentage who will need that high cost level. Those costs get spread out so that if you work in a larger company the impact won't be that bad, but if you work somewhere with, lets say 25 employees, each employee will feel the impact directly. However, if a person can not work due to illness the government does step in and that person may be eligible for SSDI and after two years on that they'd qualify for Medicare as their insurer.
Those profits that everyone points to with hatred, is what most of us will be retiring on. Many mutual funds, Ira's, etc... invest into all kinds of industries and insurance companies are often part of those investments. The insurance companies charge the amount they do because inside that insurer is a "shared responsibility" approach, share the costs equally between all participating members. But lets not forget our part in this nightmare everyone seems to think this is. What role do play and what effect is it having on the health care system. I seen more than one thread about having us unionize so we can get the wages we want and demand as nurses. Does anyone think the two aren't connected? And nurses aren't the only one's who want higher wages, think of everyone in all the various departments who feel very justified in demanding high wages. We also push to get the minimum wage up and in doing so we employers to take one of two options. First option for any employer may be to lay someone off, that increase in pay has to come from somewhere. In doing this we may have won in guaranteeing a higher minimum wage, but we also got someone else a pink slip. The other option that a company may do in response to the increased minimum wage is to pass the increased costs on to the consumer, which will put pressure to increase wages across the board, thus making the minimum wage ineffective right out of the gate. This is basic economics, and I know everybody is just in love with Europe, Canada, actually anywhere but here. Has anyone filed taxes or has talked to people from the various Utopia's that exist outside of the U.S. Be prepared to watch a very significant portion of income go to taxes, they when you purchase something you get the value added taxes applied to whatever it is. My Father-in-Law is German and does very well, he's in the 70% tax bracket. How many of you want to get up and go to work tomorrow and turn over 0.70 cents for every dollar you earn to the Federal Government. I don't think I want to work anymore if that happens. There really is a reason that America is called the economic engine of the world.
There are people right now developing new treatments, new drugs, new assertive devices all in hopes of making money. There is nothing inherently evil in wanting to make money. The drug companies have, for the 25 years I know of, worked to make sure people who need their medications get them regardless of the person ability to pay.
And I just have to say one more thing, just because someone says something many times and they say it loudly, it doesn't make it true. Really, I believe it was Churchill (the intelligent one, not the idiot in Colorado) who said, "A lie will be half way round the world while the truth is still putting his pants on."
And, by the way, we won in Vietnam, the media just didn't want us to so they repeated negative down beat stories until we had to leave. Please review the Tet Offensive, it did take a few weeks but North Vietnamese were on the run. Just please do some actual research and look at how things work now and what they will probably look like if "your changes" were put into action.

I want to more formally "thank you" by quoting your post.

You are so right - there is no inherent evil in making a profit.

I don't agree with raising taxes for universal healthcare.

I've read extensively on Vietnam and been there twice for weeks working from northern Vietnam to southern Vietnam. In rural village and in cities. The people we talked to in the medical clinics tell a different story than the media told during the war. It is a horrific to listen to what happened AFTER we left . . . :madface:

steph

lamazeteacher · Sep 27, 2007

Stevielynn,

You aren't well informed, and your message isn't accurate. Insurance companies do set the cost of healthcare, based on what they approve. I've lost 3 jobs due to their charging much higher premiums for employees over 55 (like $900. monthly) . Then after Medicare could be the primary insurer, they don't allow that! And then they charge the employer more for older employees!! Elder discrimination is the result. There's a lot of good work left in this older Nurse, but no opportunity to work, in the rural area in which I live. Doctors refuse to take Medicare patients so much, that I had called all of them, was refused, and have to get my care at a Public Health clinic! When I had a gastric hemorrhage due to EC ibuprophen prescribed for knee pain, and was on the "critical list" with a very low Hgb, I wasn't hospitalized, even though I live alone, am new to the community and have no friends or realtives here.

In 1973 my Obstetrician complained to me about the $100,000 his malpractise insurance cost that year, at each prenatal visit. When his wife who was my neighbor divorced him, she told me he made $800,000 from his practise alone that year! Compare that to the maximum salary Nurses earn. His actual costs for his employees and office are tax deductible. Insurance company CEOs get over $8,000,000/year, and Nurses working there earn more than they do elsewhere, as they document their refusals of care (reported in a news magazine and not challenged several years ago).

Physical therapists use a steroid gel when giving light/"microwave" treatments for all patients getting joint care, but Medicare doesn't pay for it! Medicare is definitely not the model for other insurance coverage. If it was, the outcry would have happened earlier than it has.

Watch Oprah today, as she interviews an insurance company lobbyist and CEOs. Yesterday she educated the public about the effect of divorce on children, and a psychologist walked watchers through the correct way to inform children about it. Yes, she can be sensationalist, but she's a valuable educator too.

allnurses Guide · Sep 27, 2007

stevielynn,
you aren't well informed, and your message isn't accurate.
gee thanks for giving me credit for spydercadet's message - which is accurate.
medicare doesn't pay for it! medicare is definitely not the model for other insurance coverage. if it was, the outcry would have happened earlier than it has.
.
another good reason not to look to the government for universal healthcare.

as to oprah . . . . . well, i could probably watch if she was on here locally. we don't get her show.

steph

HM2VikingRN, RN · Sep 29, 2007

Will taxes go up with a single payer plan? This is a yes and no answer. I think PNHP figures it as about a 6-7% payroll tax. This would replace the medicare tax we are already paying. Instead of paying insurance premiums by payroll deduction we would pay a payroll tax instead. I think it would actually end up as a wash cost wise for employees and their families.

lamazeteacher · Sep 29, 2007

I've never heard of a 70% tax bracket! Certainly not in Canada, where my family lives. It's hard to figure if grumbling about taxes is universal, if there really is higher taxation there. If I asked my sister how much tax she pays in Canada, she'd probably tell me it was none of my business. However, I do know that she refurbishes the walls, floors, and furniture in her unmortgaged 2200 sf home (a condo on the 28th floor, with a view of the entire city and Lake Ontario, with doorman services, underground parking, swimming pool and health club) at least every 5 years, has household help twice weekly, travels to Palm Springs for the winter, and entertains on a lavish scale. She does have to take health insurance coverage out for the time she's in CA (the cost of flying sick people home, from outside the country got too expensive and hazardous). Right now she's en route to Barcelona, with her husband, plans to stay in a luxury hotel, etc. All this as a retiree! Her pension from the government is many times what I get in my social security check! Even though it wasn't needed, she received a government allowance check for each of her 4 children while they were in school.

My neice is a family physician with 3 sons at first rate Universities now and they don't have to work or lend money for their higher education, which in my mind is superior (I received my education there, and was paid to go to postgraduate courses of study). My great neice who grew up in San Diego goes to University of British Columbia, as she recognized that the education there is better. My neice and nephew have a lovely huge home with pool that isn't mortgaged - interest on mortgages is not tax deductable there, and to have one is embaressing.

Real Estate costs in Toronto are similar to those across the lake, in rural Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and Cinncinatti. It's more expensive to live in inner cities in Canada. MDs there complain about the paucity of their salaries (not capitated) compared to that of American doctors, and they take expensive vacations, shop extensively, and my neice, the doctor, wears gorgeous clothes, as do her children, and has a lovely luxury automobile that she changes for a brand new model every other year. Her husband works in the family business (toys) that does remarkably well. You can order from www.mastermindtoys.com (many soldiers in Iraq do).

Quality of life is good for everyone I know in Canada, (except teachers and nurses who in all cultures aren't rewarded sufficiently for their services, as the satisfaction for most, supercedes monetary gain, so they don't assert themselves to get higher salaries). Slums as we have them in the USA, are not there. People only need to worry about getting well, rather than the cost of being sick, and I've never known anyone employed in a Canadian business to lose their job due to illness or pregnancy. The healthcare is very good, and more time for recuperation is allowed, as well as for bereavement. If a medical test is necessary there's no hesitation ordering it. During a visit there, I explained to my neice that my doctor in the USA didn't order diagnostic tests and blood work I felt was needed after I had breast cancer, due to the cost. She murmured "oh, you do have to worry about that there", she ordered the tests, and I paid a fraction of the cost here, for them. Most Canadians don't mind waiting for non emergency procedures (which is never more than 3 months while their condition is monitored), as their confidence in the doctors there is much higher than it is here. The expensive equipment each of our hospitals has, to keep up with the neighboring ones, is judiciously placed there, in highly populated areas where morbidity is high. No designer furniture is used for lobbies of hospitals, and paintings are not on the walls.

We do have to be concerned about discontent, greedy doctors here. I almost had my knee replaced by one of those characters here in the USA, who hadn't even seen any X-rays of it! They were lost in radiology and never got to his office, but he was retiring that month, so that was his emergency, as he hustled me toward the O.R. A second opinion revealed no reason for the operation, and my pain has been relieved by a strap under the knee. (The physical therapist suggested that, after a thorough and thoughtful examination of it, but I had to ask for PT, it was not suggested.) While having PT, I was made to see a doctor every month for another order for PT, and was reevaluated monthly even though no change in my condition occurred (just less pain, and better strength). I was told that Medicare patients could have pool therapy only twice a week, as a PT had to be there at all times for us - not for privately insured patients (less bang for their bucks). Also, steroid gel could not be used during light therapy for Medicare patients. Double standards abound, none of which serves patients well, in the delivery of healthcare in the USA.

Patients in Canada with high incomes (over $200,000 yearly) are the same as most rich people, wanting instant gratification and those are the ones who go to the USA indignantly, rather than wait for non emergency procedures in Canada. With them, everything is an emergency (you know the type). They take their vehicles downtown, while most Torontonians wouldn't dream of using $4./gal gas to do that, only to pay high fees for parking, with a long walk to where they're going (yes, in the snow). The subway there is clean, faster, and safe at all hours. Parking near subway stations is called, "Kiss and Ride", encouraging families to take passengers to the station and then go home...... or to their other place of work.

I think we have to work toward happier, healthier lives here, and to care more about the needs of our fellow Americans (and legal immigrants). I will stay here, and work toward getting a better healthcare plan for Americans, rather than "bleeding" the healthcare system in Canada, when I haven't contributed money to it by working there for the past 40 years...... That attitude is the result of a Canadian upbringing.

In the Oprah show last Thursday, Michael Moore commented that if he knew others were being well served medically, and that was why he had to wait for an elective procedure, he wouldn't mind waiting. It's the "me first" mentality that undermines us and our "civilization", he said.

The healthcare insurance lobbyist on that show whined "why shouldn't we make a profit?" A gargantuan profit such as they make now, is obscene, especially in the face of those who can't afford insurance, or continue to work in positions where they have no satisfaction, for the coverage. Often abuse goes unreported, due to that fear.

Exposures to patients' body fluids is one of the most underreported worker injuries! When I had one (my first, in 47 years as a Nurse) and as a former Infection Control and Employee Health Nurse, I wanted followup, at the Public Health Clinic where a parent holding her frantic toddler for immunization (9 different shots) lost hold of him, with the result that the used needle went into my hand. No one knew the procedure for follow-up, (even those who had been in administrative positions there for over a decade). So I guess no one copped to it before I did. How sad.

Simplepleasures · Sep 29, 2007

WOW, thanks for that post Lamazeteacher, finally someone is telling it like it is.I was in Canada recently for a family reunion and I polled every member there, they ALL said despite the problems of their health care system, they would NOT trade it for what we have here.They like the idea of keeping their homes and not filing for bankruptcy.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Sep 29, 2007

I like the quality of life in Canada. I went to Niagra Falls last year. On the Canadian side the streets were clean, people friendly and it was just a generally nice place to visit. On the American side it was culturally and economically depressed. Prices were essentially the same on both sides of the river. I think the QOL was better on the Canadian side.

Inge, good to see you around!

lamazeteacher · Sep 30, 2007

The evil regarding making money, is how much is made, while people are forced out of their homes due to the quantity of medical costs - even when they are insured. Even after someone dies, with medical bills owing, families of the deceased are harassed by hospitals' collection agencies for the money, to the point that they are threatened with loss of their homes. That is illegal.

You need to research the result os the Vietnamese War. The media didn't announce defeat, just have your fingernails done by a Vietnamese man who has postgraduate degrees in engineering, and other higher education, and he will tell you that we didn't win the war, a great disappointment to all. Didn't you see the footage showing desperate people trying to evacuate at the end? That wasn't staged!

The Tet offensive was just that, an offensive effort that had the North Vietnamese on the run. That was a battle, not the whole war. If you

choose to look at only the positive things you'd have liked us to do, you will be out of touch with reality (that's a psychiatric diagnosis), and unable to help make things better. You've seen the 3 monkeys representing "hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil". That is a criticism of squewed perception, not a directive.

lamazeteacher · Sep 30, 2007

No!! Costs will go down, and salaries rise, when the profiteers in healthcare insurance are gone, and new equipment goes where it's needed most.