Conscience Schmoncience! Who cares what you believe? - page 8

by jmqphd

9,850 Visits | 105 Comments

Not sure where this goes on allnurses. But since everyone has their own core beliefs that inform their nursing practice, I thought it would be interesting to more than just the political junkies. Obama's Grave Assault on... Read More


  1. 8
    Quote from FLmomof5
    Such a lefist attack. I said that the left will promote the Muslim wearing a head scarf yet when a CHRISTIAN wants to say that they conform to their faith, the LEFT wants to force them to do otherwise in the interest of "freedom" of NON-religion. Hypocritical....don't you think?
    Religious headgear (which Christians don't have, unless you're a nun or the Pope) does not affect patient care. Refusal to prescribe or dispense certain meds, or perform certain procedures, because of religious beliefs affects patient care.
    laborer, Little Miss Coffee, WIN007, and 5 others like this.
  2. 0
    Quote from jmqphd
    I think most people with particular sensitivities will avoid situations that they know will put them in moral conflict. The problem with the abortifacients is that the federal rule effects every pharmacist. Every single dispensing pharmacists. So it is a bigger deal than the fact that I need to avoid jobs at Planned Parenthood. There are people who are devout Mormons, Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox Jews and serious Muslims who are or would like to go to pharmacy school but are giving it second thoughts.

    If the problem is a lack of pharmacists in a rural community (50 mile radius) are you helping pregnant teen-aged girls by driving one of them out of practice. 'Cause non-pregnant teenagers are going to need antibiotics, and elderly people are going to need their lisinopril, and the farmer who wrenched his back is going to need vicodin and flexeril, and so on.

    Your hypothetical pregnant teenager probably makes the drive into town to the Walmart pretty frequently and doesn't feel put-upon because she has to make that trip to get ordinary things. Rite Aid has looked at that little rural community and determined they can't make money there. But an independent pharmacist has been there for a while. So, because 16 year old Suzie can't get her Plan B from that store, take that pharmacists license from him (serves him right! don't ya' know) and make all the old folks drive into town for their Aricept and Coreg. Now the farmer with the bad back has to load himself into his pick-up and drive 100 miles round trip to get pain relief.

    Somehow, I don't think enforcing this rule makes medications more readily available to Americans. I think it does the opposite.
    huh? what?? Oh, nevermind. :-)
  3. 0
    Quote from FLmomof5
    Such a lefist attack. I said that the left will promote the Muslim wearing a head scarf yet when a CHRISTIAN wants to say that they conform to their faith, the LEFT wants to force them to do otherwise in the interest of "freedom" of NON-religion. Hypocritical....don't you think?
    Oh, yeah. That one! "Promotion of Muslims wearing head scarfs" just happens every day where I work. (NOT).
    So, c'mon now if you're so confident in your opinions than surely you don't need to reduce to this silliness.
  4. 3
    Quote from FLmomof5
    Yes. The Uneducated. That is what the pro-abortion group wanted. Don't let them know that it has all the parts of a person yet. In doing so, they will still abort. It is the LEFT that promoted this...NOT the right. :P

    While I admit to leaning against most abortions and I surely don't want to argue THAT one, still, this was really disingenous. In my life I have yet to meet someone who is "pro-abortion".
  5. 2
    So the uneducated want to rush to correct "the mistake" while it still isn't a child. It is easier to abort a bunch of meaningless cells that are dividing than it is to realize that bunch of cells already has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat. (I understand that is not so for the morning after pills.)

    And how does this mean that it is more important than its living mother, who also has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat?

    Also, "uneducated" is wrong. Most people understand fetal development relatively well. Just because it has a shape doesn't mean it's the same as a thinking, feeling woman with a life of her own.

    Another poster committed adultery and got pregnant as a result. While grateful for abortion that would allow her to save her marriage without a living legacy of her mistake was good in her opinion....IMHO, that innocent life was sentenced to death for the sins of the parents.

    That's unfortunate, I'll give you that. Not that I'm judging that poster quite so harshly...

    The Oath of MDs is "first - do no harm". Well, if you kill the fetus, that is harm....at least to the fetus.


    "First - do no harm" is a great oath, except it's so simplistic that it requires interpretation. And we can't assume that the fetus is the only one who deserves to go unharmed here.

    Another poster had an abortion because she couldn't bring a child into that abusive relationship. I brought 3 into mine. The youngest of those three graduates from College next year majoring in Criminal Justice. She is married to a future USMC officer and is carrying my first grandchild! Being abused is horrible. Leaving a challenge. Raising the children without child support tough. No one ever said life would be easy. Praise GOD, my children live.

    That's great for you. It's not great for everyone, and you have no right to force anyone to do anything just because you did it. By that logic, everyone who's ever done anything good should be allowed to force others to do the same.

    Leonardo DaVinci was the "bastard child of peasants". Imagine if abortion were legal then.

    The world would be different, but it would certainly still be here.

    I supported a woman's right to choose when I was young. Then at a church service a man talked to the congregation and said that it was ALWAYS wrong. I went to afterwards and asked him how could he say that! What about the poor victims of rape and incest. (less than 2% of abortions) He responded that the child didn't do anything wrong and that we cannot know God's plan for this child.....he, a man of God, leading others to Christ, was the product of rape. Wow.

    That's nice...for those who are Christian and believe their callings in life are to follow the Bible dutifully until the very end.

    Other empty arms were made full of love by the selfless decision of a woman who couldn't or wouldn't keep an unwanted child.

    Also great. That's one of the wonderful things about diversity. Some parents will choose to give a child up for adoption. There will ALWAYS be people who choose this route instead of abortion. Don't force it.

    Every action, every choice has consequences. Don't wear a helmet and suffer irreparable brain injury or death. Smoke and get cancer. Do illicit drugs and lose your career, your family, your home and ultimately your health. Have sex outside of marriage and get pregnant.

    Sexual moralism doesn't work to prevent abortion. It never has, throughout history, and it never, ever will. People will revert to using hangers to scrape out their insides, if necessary.

    The biggest dichotomy out there is Pro-life folks for the death penalty while on the opposite end of the spectrum is pro-abortion/choice and being against the death penalty.

    Yeah, so? I'm pro-choice and fairly approving of the death penalty, with consideration that it may actually be less efficient than locking prisoners up...

    We will NEVER know what those aborted children may have become or may have created. We will also never know if that "horrific" issue that plagued the young women wouldn't have turned out to ultimately be their greatest joy. We never gave that a chance.

    Many things in life are "never given a chance." That's part of living. You know who else is never given a chance? People who become parents at age 14 and have to spend the rest of their days in a job they hate just because they couldn't get to a Plan B pill in time.

    One bumper sticker that I loved said: "Unborn women should have choice too!"

    Not surprising that the "choices" of the unborn "women," who I might add are incapable of making any decisions or of caring about their decisions, are given priority against women who are already here...

    We are a democratic society that holds freedom of religion to be one of our founding principles. While a majority here support that "right to choose", I support the right of them to also choose an a-religious provider. The Lord requires that we live our whole life for Him, not just Sunday service. Our freedom of religion means that the government should never force the faithful to commit an act against their faith. How many here would support a Muslim nurse's right to wear a head scarf? It is the same on the religion playing field. If a Christian physician/pharmacist will not prescribe or perform what you want, you have the freedom in this country to go to someone who will.

    So I suppose that if you live in a hyper-conservative state in the Bible Belt where everyone demonizes all sexual activity, never mind birth control, you're just going to magically locate someone who will provide it?

    I will not be taken emotional hostage by your religious claims. Sorry. You have every right to choose never to have an abortion, and you have every right to raise your own children as Christians who will never advocate abortion either, and you also have every right to vote against politicians who would advocate abortion.

    Your personal attacks against other posters' personal lives are quite appalling. That, not necessarily just your opinions, are what prompted me to want to respond.
    Last edit by Little Miss Coffee on Jun 6, '11 : Reason: Improving arguments.
    talaxandra and WIN007 like this.
  6. 4
    Quote from Little Miss Coffee
    So the uneducated want to rush to correct "the mistake" while it still isn't a child. It is easier to abort a bunch of meaningless cells that are dividing than it is to realize that bunch of cells already has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat. (I understand that is not so for the morning after pills.)

    And how does this mean that it is more important than its living mother, who also has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat?

    Also, "uneducated" is wrong. Most people understand fetal development relatively well. Just because it has a shape doesn't mean it's the same as a thinking, feeling woman with a life of her own.

    Another poster committed adultery and got pregnant as a result. While grateful for abortion that would allow her to save her marriage without a living legacy of her mistake was good in her opinion....IMHO, that innocent life was sentenced to death for the sins of the parents.

    That's unfortunate, I'll give you that. Not that I'm judging that poster quite so harshly...

    The Oath of MDs is "first - do no harm". Well, if you kill the fetus, that is harm....at least to the fetus.

    "First - do no harm" is a great oath, except it's so simplistic that it requires interpretation. And we can't assume that the fetus is the only one who deserves to go unharmed here.

    Another poster had an abortion because she couldn't bring a child into that abusive relationship. I brought 3 into mine. The youngest of those three graduates from College next year majoring in Criminal Justice. She is married to a future USMC officer and is carrying my first grandchild! Being abused is horrible. Leaving a challenge. Raising the children without child support tough. No one ever said life would be easy. Praise GOD, my children live.

    That's great for you. It's not great for everyone, and you have no right to force anyone to do anything just because you did it. By that logic, everyone who's ever done anything good should be allowed to force others to do the same.

    Leonardo DaVinci was the "bastard child of peasants". Imagine if abortion were legal then.

    The world would be different, but it would certainly still be here.

    I supported a woman's right to choose when I was young. Then at a church service a man talked to the congregation and said that it was ALWAYS wrong. I went to afterwards and asked him how could he say that! What about the poor victims of rape and incest. (less than 2% of abortions) He responded that the child didn't do anything wrong and that we cannot know God's plan for this child.....he, a man of God, leading others to Christ, was the product of rape. Wow.

    That's nice...for those who are Christian and believe their callings in life are to follow the Bible dutifully until the very end.

    Other empty arms were made full of love by the selfless decision of a woman who couldn't or wouldn't keep an unwanted child.

    Also great. That's one of the wonderful things about diversity. Some parents will choose to give a child up for adoption. There will ALWAYS be people who choose this route instead of abortion. Don't force it.

    Every action, every choice has consequences. Don't wear a helmet and suffer irreparable brain injury or death. Smoke and get cancer. Do illicit drugs and lose your career, your family, your home and ultimately your health. Have sex outside of marriage and get pregnant.

    Sexual moralism doesn't work to prevent abortion. It never has, throughout history, and it never, ever will. People will revert to using hangers to scrape out their insides, if necessary.

    The biggest dichotomy out there is Pro-life folks for the death penalty while on the opposite end of the spectrum is pro-abortion/choice and being against the death penalty.

    Yeah, so? I'm pro-choice and fairly approving of the death penalty, with consideration that it may actually be less efficient than locking prisoners up...

    We will NEVER know what those aborted children may have become or may have created. We will also never know if that "horrific" issue that plagued the young women wouldn't have turned out to ultimately be their greatest joy. We never gave that a chance.

    Many things in life are "never given a chance." That's part of living. You know who else is never given a chance? People who become parents at age 14 and have to spend the rest of their days in a job they hate just because they couldn't get to a Plan B pill in time.

    One bumper sticker that I loved said: "Unborn women should have choice too!"

    Not surprising that the "choices" of the unborn "women," who I might add are incapable of making any decisions or of caring about their decisions, are given priority against women who are already here...

    We are a democratic society that holds freedom of religion to be one of our founding principles. While a majority here support that "right to choose", I support the right of them to also choose an a-religious provider. The Lord requires that we live our whole life for Him, not just Sunday service. Our freedom of religion means that the government should never force the faithful to commit an act against their faith. How many here would support a Muslim nurse's right to wear a head scarf? It is the same on the religion playing field. If a Christian physician/pharmacist will not prescribe or perform what you want, you have the freedom in this country to go to someone who will.

    So I suppose that if you live in a hyper-conservative state in the Bible Belt where everyone demonizes all sexual activity, never mind birth control, you're just going to magically locate someone who will provide it?

    I will not be taken emotional hostage by your religious claims. Sorry. You have every right to choose never to have an abortion, and you have every right to raise your own children as Christians who will never advocate abortion either, and you also have every right to vote against politicians who would advocate abortion.

    Your personal attacks against other posters' personal lives are quite appalling. That, not necessarily just your opinions, are what prompted me to want to respond.

    I'm in the pro-life camp but I am still appalled at the personal attacks and pisspoor logic so many put forth.
    For example we could have aborted DaVinci and not had art but IF someone had aborted Hitler that would have saved the lives of 9 million Jews, Poles, Russians, clergy, etc.

    I wouldn't have one but I also believe the law's the law. Whatever one's personal religious beliefs are it's time to leave them at the front door if you work in a healthcare setting and abide by the law, patient confidentiality, accurate information, and so forth. If that's not possible for someone, then as others have stated, they should leave the profession.
    talaxandra, OC_An Khe, morte, and 1 other like this.
  7. 8
    My beliefs at my place of employment do not matter. I am there to support the PATIENTS choice. Whether or not I believe in abortion or not, it not my place to deny care. For example, I believe it is morally incomprehensible that I cannot disclose a patient's HIV status to their own spouse. However, I am not going to brand said patient with a scarlet H. I will discuss all aspects of care, but my own feelings do not matter. If I am assigned to any patient, my job is to support them.

    I go to work as a blank slate and support my patients, no matter what they decide. It is like informed consent. Give all the choices and the risks and let the patient decide.
  8. 0
    Lots of interesting opinions on this thread. I am a Christian, and this is how the "Plan B" issue looks to many of us: According to our beliefs, all forms of abortion are murder. Therefore, dispensing a medication that will either kill the embryo outright, or prevent implantation ( thus killing the embryo indirectly) is, to us, aiding someone else to commit murder. The aiding of murder makes us just as morally guilty as the one committing the act.

    Now any of you are certainly free to disagree with this point of view. I am simply setting forth the reasoning behind some religious objections to giving or dispensing this drug. There is a great deal of difference between dispensing a drug you believe is inadvisable (such as an early childhood vaccine) and dispensing a drug that you believe will make you an accessory to murder.

    This is why many strongly religious people object so vehemently to the idea of requiring a pharmacist to dispense "Plan B" against his or her conscience. Again, you may agree or disagree with this position. I hope I have given you the chance to understand, at least a little bit, why someone else might feel this way.
  9. 1
    Lots of interesting opinions on this thread. I am a Christian, and this is how the "Plan B" issue looks to many of us: According to our beliefs, all forms of abortion are murder. Therefore, dispensing a medication that will either kill the embryo outright, or prevent implantation ( thus killing the embryo indirectly) is, to us, aiding someone else to commit murder. The aiding of murder makes us just as morally guilty as the one committing the act.
    *** I am not a Christian. I do not believe that preventing implantation is murder. The big differences in our beliefs is that I don't feel that everybody should have to live their lives according to MY beliefs.

    Now any of you are certainly free to disagree with this point of view. I am simply setting forth the reasoning behind some religious objections to giving or dispensing this drug. There is a great deal of difference between dispensing a drug you believe is inadvisable (such as an early childhood vaccine) and dispensing a drug that you believe will make you an accessory to murder.
    *** If I believed that doing a particular thing was wrong, or would make me an accessory to murder I would not put myself (at great effort and expence) into a position where doing so was an expected part of my job. For example if I was a Hindu and believe that butchering cows was taboo I would NOT choose to go to school to become a butcher and then accept a job as a butcher only to tell hungry people waiting for meat "Oh I can't butcher a cow because of my religious beliefs you will just have to go without".

    This is why many strongly religious people object so vehemently to the idea of requiring a pharmacist to dispense "Plan B" against his or her conscience.
    *** I do disagree with that position. Given that there are many pharmacists jobs where it would never come up, for example a chemo pharmacist on an oncology unit, and many more occupations requiring a similar amount of training for a similar reward (physicial therapy for example) I have little sympathy for a person who goes out of their way to put themselves into a position to dispence Plan-B. I view it as (yet another) case of a person imposing their own religious values on others.

    Again, you may agree or disagree with this position. I hope I have given you the chance to understand, at least a little bit, why someone else might feel this way.
    *** I am particulary sensitive to this problem as I live in a very rural area. For a time a few years ago the sole pharmacist withing 45 miles was refusing to dispence certain birth control Rx. What made it even worse was that the pharmacists 45 miles away was also refusing at the same time. Bother for their personal religious reasons. A woman was looking at an hour and a half drive each way to get certain Rx filled. Luckily one retired and the other got fired for stealing drugs.
    I feel that the religious, mostly Christians, impose their own values on my life to a huge degree already. I wish for their imposition to decrease over time, though I don't see it happening.
    Not_A_Hat_Person likes this.
  10. 0
    Sounds like typical conservative hysterical bs to me.

    "Take overs"? Really? I live in Detroit. Nothing got taken over.

    This stuff is embarrassing to real conservatives.


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