Conscience Schmoncience! Who cares what you believe?

Nurses Activism

Published

Not sure where this goes on allnurses. But since everyone has their own core beliefs that inform their nursing practice, I thought it would be interesting to more than just the political junkies.

Obama's Grave Assault on Medical Conscience Rights

by Kristan Hawkins

05/21/2011

Quote
During the past two years, Americans have seen the expansion of the federal government into sectors of their economy and personal life as never before. And earlier this year, the Obama administration quietly moved into a new area of American life, one of its most intimate, the patient-doctor relationship.

Like the Obama takeovers of the automobile industry, the banking industry and then the health care industry, the new conscience-rights assault is the administration's latest attempt to fundamentally change our nation as we know it.

In February, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced the rescission of most of the Bush administration’s 2008 conscience protections, removing the rights of doctors, pharmacists and other medical professionals to object to prescribing or dispensing known abortifacient drugs such as Plan B and ella. This rescission sends a clear signal to medical professionals nationwide—leave your conscience at the door, and if you morally object to a medical procedure or medication, then you should be in another business.

When Students for Life, Medical Students for Life and other pro-life medical groups wrote to HHS about the rescission, the agency defended its decision and cited the federal definition of abortion, arguing that abortion-causing drugs such as Plan B and ella are not covered under the definition of abortion, and therefore doctors do not have the right to refuse to prescribe or dispense these dangerous drugs.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=43627

Such a lefist attack. I said that the left will promote the Muslim wearing a head scarf yet when a CHRISTIAN wants to say that they conform to their faith, the LEFT wants to force them to do otherwise in the interest of "freedom" of NON-religion. Hypocritical....don't you think?

Oh, yeah. That one! "Promotion of Muslims wearing head scarfs" just happens every day where I work. (NOT).

So, c'mon now if you're so confident in your opinions than surely you don't need to reduce to this silliness.

Yes. The Uneducated. That is what the pro-abortion group wanted. Don't let them know that it has all the parts of a person yet. In doing so, they will still abort. It is the LEFT that promoted this...NOT the right. :p

While I admit to leaning against most abortions and I surely don't want to argue THAT one, still, this was really disingenous. In my life I have yet to meet someone who is "pro-abortion".

So the uneducated want to rush to correct "the mistake" while it still isn't a child. It is easier to abort a bunch of meaningless cells that are dividing than it is to realize that bunch of cells already has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat. (I understand that is not so for the morning after pills.)

And how does this mean that it is more important than its living mother, who also has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat?

Also, "uneducated" is wrong. Most people understand fetal development relatively well. Just because it has a shape doesn't mean it's the same as a thinking, feeling woman with a life of her own.

Another poster committed adultery and got pregnant as a result. While grateful for abortion that would allow her to save her marriage without a living legacy of her mistake was good in her opinion....IMHO, that innocent life was sentenced to death for the sins of the parents.

That's unfortunate, I'll give you that. Not that I'm judging that poster quite so harshly...

The Oath of MDs is "first - do no harm". Well, if you kill the fetus, that is harm....at least to the fetus.

"First - do no harm" is a great oath, except it's so simplistic that it requires interpretation. And we can't assume that the fetus is the only one who deserves to go unharmed here.

Another poster had an abortion because she couldn't bring a child into that abusive relationship. I brought 3 into mine. The youngest of those three graduates from College next year majoring in Criminal Justice. She is married to a future USMC officer and is carrying my first grandchild! Being abused is horrible. Leaving a challenge. Raising the children without child support tough. No one ever said life would be easy. Praise GOD, my children live.

That's great for you. It's not great for everyone, and you have no right to force anyone to do anything just because you did it. By that logic, everyone who's ever done anything good should be allowed to force others to do the same.

Leonardo DaVinci was the "bastard child of peasants". Imagine if abortion were legal then.

The world would be different, but it would certainly still be here.

I supported a woman's right to choose when I was young. Then at a church service a man talked to the congregation and said that it was ALWAYS wrong. I went to afterwards and asked him how could he say that! What about the poor victims of rape and incest. (less than 2% of abortions) He responded that the child didn't do anything wrong and that we cannot know God's plan for this child.....he, a man of God, leading others to Christ, was the product of rape. Wow.

That's nice...for those who are Christian and believe their callings in life are to follow the Bible dutifully until the very end.

Other empty arms were made full of love by the selfless decision of a woman who couldn't or wouldn't keep an unwanted child.

Also great. That's one of the wonderful things about diversity. Some parents will choose to give a child up for adoption. There will ALWAYS be people who choose this route instead of abortion. Don't force it.

Every action, every choice has consequences. Don't wear a helmet and suffer irreparable brain injury or death. Smoke and get cancer. Do illicit drugs and lose your career, your family, your home and ultimately your health. Have sex outside of marriage and get pregnant.

Sexual moralism doesn't work to prevent abortion. It never has, throughout history, and it never, ever will. People will revert to using hangers to scrape out their insides, if necessary.

The biggest dichotomy out there is Pro-life folks for the death penalty while on the opposite end of the spectrum is pro-abortion/choice and being against the death penalty.

Yeah, so? I'm pro-choice and fairly approving of the death penalty, with consideration that it may actually be less efficient than locking prisoners up...

We will NEVER know what those aborted children may have become or may have created. We will also never know if that "horrific" issue that plagued the young women wouldn't have turned out to ultimately be their greatest joy. We never gave that a chance.

Many things in life are "never given a chance." That's part of living. You know who else is never given a chance? People who become parents at age 14 and have to spend the rest of their days in a job they hate just because they couldn't get to a Plan B pill in time.

One bumper sticker that I loved said: "Unborn women should have choice too!"

Not surprising that the "choices" of the unborn "women," who I might add are incapable of making any decisions or of caring about their decisions, are given priority against women who are already here...

We are a democratic society that holds freedom of religion to be one of our founding principles. While a majority here support that "right to choose", I support the right of them to also choose an a-religious provider. The Lord requires that we live our whole life for Him, not just Sunday service. Our freedom of religion means that the government should never force the faithful to commit an act against their faith. How many here would support a Muslim nurse's right to wear a head scarf? It is the same on the religion playing field. If a Christian physician/pharmacist will not prescribe or perform what you want, you have the freedom in this country to go to someone who will.

So I suppose that if you live in a hyper-conservative state in the Bible Belt where everyone demonizes all sexual activity, never mind birth control, you're just going to magically locate someone who will provide it?

I will not be taken emotional hostage by your religious claims. Sorry. You have every right to choose never to have an abortion, and you have every right to raise your own children as Christians who will never advocate abortion either, and you also have every right to vote against politicians who would advocate abortion.

Your personal attacks against other posters' personal lives are quite appalling. That, not necessarily just your opinions, are what prompted me to want to respond.

So the uneducated want to rush to correct "the mistake" while it still isn't a child. It is easier to abort a bunch of meaningless cells that are dividing than it is to realize that bunch of cells already has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat. (I understand that is not so for the morning after pills.)

And how does this mean that it is more important than its living mother, who also has a head, body, arms and legs and a heartbeat?

Also, "uneducated" is wrong. Most people understand fetal development relatively well. Just because it has a shape doesn't mean it's the same as a thinking, feeling woman with a life of her own.

Another poster committed adultery and got pregnant as a result. While grateful for abortion that would allow her to save her marriage without a living legacy of her mistake was good in her opinion....IMHO, that innocent life was sentenced to death for the sins of the parents.

That's unfortunate, I'll give you that. Not that I'm judging that poster quite so harshly...

The Oath of MDs is "first - do no harm". Well, if you kill the fetus, that is harm....at least to the fetus.

"First - do no harm" is a great oath, except it's so simplistic that it requires interpretation. And we can't assume that the fetus is the only one who deserves to go unharmed here.

Another poster had an abortion because she couldn't bring a child into that abusive relationship. I brought 3 into mine. The youngest of those three graduates from College next year majoring in Criminal Justice. She is married to a future USMC officer and is carrying my first grandchild! Being abused is horrible. Leaving a challenge. Raising the children without child support tough. No one ever said life would be easy. Praise GOD, my children live.

That's great for you. It's not great for everyone, and you have no right to force anyone to do anything just because you did it. By that logic, everyone who's ever done anything good should be allowed to force others to do the same.

Leonardo DaVinci was the "bastard child of peasants". Imagine if abortion were legal then.

The world would be different, but it would certainly still be here.

I supported a woman's right to choose when I was young. Then at a church service a man talked to the congregation and said that it was ALWAYS wrong. I went to afterwards and asked him how could he say that! What about the poor victims of rape and incest. (less than 2% of abortions) He responded that the child didn't do anything wrong and that we cannot know God's plan for this child.....he, a man of God, leading others to Christ, was the product of rape. Wow.

That's nice...for those who are Christian and believe their callings in life are to follow the Bible dutifully until the very end.

Other empty arms were made full of love by the selfless decision of a woman who couldn't or wouldn't keep an unwanted child.

Also great. That's one of the wonderful things about diversity. Some parents will choose to give a child up for adoption. There will ALWAYS be people who choose this route instead of abortion. Don't force it.

Every action, every choice has consequences. Don't wear a helmet and suffer irreparable brain injury or death. Smoke and get cancer. Do illicit drugs and lose your career, your family, your home and ultimately your health. Have sex outside of marriage and get pregnant.

Sexual moralism doesn't work to prevent abortion. It never has, throughout history, and it never, ever will. People will revert to using hangers to scrape out their insides, if necessary.

The biggest dichotomy out there is Pro-life folks for the death penalty while on the opposite end of the spectrum is pro-abortion/choice and being against the death penalty.

Yeah, so? I'm pro-choice and fairly approving of the death penalty, with consideration that it may actually be less efficient than locking prisoners up...

We will NEVER know what those aborted children may have become or may have created. We will also never know if that "horrific" issue that plagued the young women wouldn't have turned out to ultimately be their greatest joy. We never gave that a chance.

Many things in life are "never given a chance." That's part of living. You know who else is never given a chance? People who become parents at age 14 and have to spend the rest of their days in a job they hate just because they couldn't get to a Plan B pill in time.

One bumper sticker that I loved said: "Unborn women should have choice too!"

Not surprising that the "choices" of the unborn "women," who I might add are incapable of making any decisions or of caring about their decisions, are given priority against women who are already here...

We are a democratic society that holds freedom of religion to be one of our founding principles. While a majority here support that "right to choose", I support the right of them to also choose an a-religious provider. The Lord requires that we live our whole life for Him, not just Sunday service. Our freedom of religion means that the government should never force the faithful to commit an act against their faith. How many here would support a Muslim nurse's right to wear a head scarf? It is the same on the religion playing field. If a Christian physician/pharmacist will not prescribe or perform what you want, you have the freedom in this country to go to someone who will.

So I suppose that if you live in a hyper-conservative state in the Bible Belt where everyone demonizes all sexual activity, never mind birth control, you're just going to magically locate someone who will provide it?

I will not be taken emotional hostage by your religious claims. Sorry. You have every right to choose never to have an abortion, and you have every right to raise your own children as Christians who will never advocate abortion either, and you also have every right to vote against politicians who would advocate abortion.

Your personal attacks against other posters' personal lives are quite appalling. That, not necessarily just your opinions, are what prompted me to want to respond.

I'm in the pro-life camp but I am still appalled at the personal attacks and pisspoor logic so many put forth.

For example we could have aborted DaVinci and not had art but IF someone had aborted Hitler that would have saved the lives of 9 million Jews, Poles, Russians, clergy, etc.

I wouldn't have one but I also believe the law's the law. Whatever one's personal religious beliefs are it's time to leave them at the front door if you work in a healthcare setting and abide by the law, patient confidentiality, accurate information, and so forth. If that's not possible for someone, then as others have stated, they should leave the profession.

My beliefs at my place of employment do not matter. I am there to support the PATIENTS choice. Whether or not I believe in abortion or not, it not my place to deny care. For example, I believe it is morally incomprehensible that I cannot disclose a patient's HIV status to their own spouse. However, I am not going to brand said patient with a scarlet H. I will discuss all aspects of care, but my own feelings do not matter. If I am assigned to any patient, my job is to support them.

I go to work as a blank slate and support my patients, no matter what they decide. It is like informed consent. Give all the choices and the risks and let the patient decide.

Lots of interesting opinions on this thread. I am a Christian, and this is how the "Plan B" issue looks to many of us: According to our beliefs, all forms of abortion are murder. Therefore, dispensing a medication that will either kill the embryo outright, or prevent implantation ( thus killing the embryo indirectly) is, to us, aiding someone else to commit murder. The aiding of murder makes us just as morally guilty as the one committing the act.

Now any of you are certainly free to disagree with this point of view. I am simply setting forth the reasoning behind some religious objections to giving or dispensing this drug. There is a great deal of difference between dispensing a drug you believe is inadvisable (such as an early childhood vaccine) and dispensing a drug that you believe will make you an accessory to murder.

This is why many strongly religious people object so vehemently to the idea of requiring a pharmacist to dispense "Plan B" against his or her conscience. Again, you may agree or disagree with this position. I hope I have given you the chance to understand, at least a little bit, why someone else might feel this way.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Lots of interesting opinions on this thread. I am a Christian, and this is how the "Plan B" issue looks to many of us: According to our beliefs, all forms of abortion are murder. Therefore, dispensing a medication that will either kill the embryo outright, or prevent implantation ( thus killing the embryo indirectly) is, to us, aiding someone else to commit murder. The aiding of murder makes us just as morally guilty as the one committing the act.

*** I am not a Christian. I do not believe that preventing implantation is murder. The big differences in our beliefs is that I don't feel that everybody should have to live their lives according to MY beliefs.

Now any of you are certainly free to disagree with this point of view. I am simply setting forth the reasoning behind some religious objections to giving or dispensing this drug. There is a great deal of difference between dispensing a drug you believe is inadvisable (such as an early childhood vaccine) and dispensing a drug that you believe will make you an accessory to murder.

*** If I believed that doing a particular thing was wrong, or would make me an accessory to murder I would not put myself (at great effort and expence) into a position where doing so was an expected part of my job. For example if I was a Hindu and believe that butchering cows was taboo I would NOT choose to go to school to become a butcher and then accept a job as a butcher only to tell hungry people waiting for meat "Oh I can't butcher a cow because of my religious beliefs you will just have to go without".

This is why many strongly religious people object so vehemently to the idea of requiring a pharmacist to dispense "Plan B" against his or her conscience.

*** I do disagree with that position. Given that there are many pharmacists jobs where it would never come up, for example a chemo pharmacist on an oncology unit, and many more occupations requiring a similar amount of training for a similar reward (physicial therapy for example) I have little sympathy for a person who goes out of their way to put themselves into a position to dispence Plan-B. I view it as (yet another) case of a person imposing their own religious values on others.

Again, you may agree or disagree with this position. I hope I have given you the chance to understand, at least a little bit, why someone else might feel this way.

*** I am particulary sensitive to this problem as I live in a very rural area. For a time a few years ago the sole pharmacist withing 45 miles was refusing to dispence certain birth control Rx. What made it even worse was that the pharmacists 45 miles away was also refusing at the same time. Bother for their personal religious reasons. A woman was looking at an hour and a half drive each way to get certain Rx filled. Luckily one retired and the other got fired for stealing drugs.

I feel that the religious, mostly Christians, impose their own values on my life to a huge degree already. I wish for their imposition to decrease over time, though I don't see it happening.

Specializes in Emergency Nursing.

Sounds like typical conservative hysterical bs to me.

"Take overs"? Really? I live in Detroit. Nothing got taken over.

This stuff is embarrassing to real conservatives.

Specializes in Ambulatory Care-Family Medicine.

I haven't read all of the posts so it may already be on here somewhere but if you are over 18 you can get plan b OTC. Just go to the pharmacy counter and ask for it, in my state you have the option to speak to a pharmacist about the drug if you choose but it is not required. Literally you walk to counter ask for plan b from the pharm tech show ID to prove you are of age and pay for it take your box and leave the pharmacy. The only real involvement the pharmacist has is ordering the drugs for the pharmacy. If you don't want to discuss it with the pharmacist you don't have to, most of the ones around here just like to read you the package insert info page anyway.

Specializes in Med-Surg.

Here is what bothers me, and this is the case for gay marriage, abortion, whatever.

I dislike that you would dictate what *I* should do, if it doesn't harm someone else. Gay marriage? It affects me, personally, in no way at all (well, except for the fact that I have relatives who are gay, and I could care less who they sleep with or want to marry, so long as they are treated well). So even if I were to have personal beliefs that contradict this, since these people getting married doesn't affect my life, why make a stink about it? Should my fear for their so-called eternal souls allow me to make their lives miserable in this life? I don't think I have that right. I don't think anyone does.

On that same note, forcing MDs or pharmacists to provide these medications or treatments that their religious beliefs tell them is wrong? I don't think that is right either. Forcing them, causing them personal, emotional, ethical distress, that is wrong too. Why is it wrong for religious people to force their beliefs on the non-religious if it is perfectly ok and acceptable for the reverse to happen?

Specializes in Med-Surg.
Do you think that pharmacists and PMP's would be on firmer moral/philosophical grounds to refuse to prescribe/dispense the drug. quote]

*** They have no moral/philosophical grounds. If they can't dispence the treatments or medications needed by their patients and indicated by patient condition they should have chosen another field. Pharmacists have a wide range of job options where the question would never even come up. Our ICU pharmacist for example never faces these issues. Even more so for physicians. The vast majority of specialities never face the issue at all.

Well, with that logic, would you tell a Jehovah's Witness nurse who refuses to administer a transfusion that she chose the wrong profession? Or that she just needs to suck it up and do it anyways, regardless of it being against their religious beliefs?

Or what if you had a Muslim nurse, male or female, who adamantly refused to perform peri-care on a patient of the opposite sex? Would you condemn them the same way?

I find it extremely insulting and frustrating that every other religion (or at least that's the way it seems) gets the right to freedom of religion, but Christians get treated like poop by everyone. And I say this as an agnostic who was raised as a Catholic. You know which religion gets the most respect? Politically correctness.

Specializes in Med-Surg.
If a medication is legal but the government tells medical professionals that they can all refuse to give it to me, how is that personal freedom? Seems like it is government power standing in the way of personal freedom.

Why does the personal freedom of a medical professional trump the freedom of a patient?

Also, the medical professional can be morally against the Plan B pill if they want to be- it is not them who will be taking the pill. Why can't people let their religious beliefs dictate their own behavior without worrying about everybody else's?

Well that's the thing. YOU and your beliefs are forcing people with beliefs that differ from yours to respect YOUR beliefs. If the pharmacist were imposing his beliefs on someone else, he would not only refuse to dispense the medication, but would then call all surrounding pharmacists and tell THEM not to dispense. Or perhaps lock the woman in his basement until there was either pregnancy or not. All we are talking about here is the individual refusing to dispense, in their own business, on their own terms.

+ Add a Comment