This "us" vs "them" mentality.... - page 9

I've been reading through the posts from the last few days, and I'm completely astonished by the "us" vs "them" mentality that is showing up between the nursing students and the staff nurses. ... Read More

  1. Visit  CCL RN profile page
    1
    Quote from linearthinker
    I think nursing needs to do a better job of weeding people out. Let's start with requiring some SAT scores comparable to the other professional schools, which means no more of this community college for RNs stuff. It's nonsense. Professionals have college degrees (don't bother with the "I know a BSN who is a terrible nurse" crap- you will not convince me). The NCLEX needs to be much harder, and much more expensive. CEU requirements need to be more stringent, as in more rigorous, and more of them. In addition, RNs should have to reboard every 5 years, just like physicians.

    I honestly think if you weed out the lowest common denominator you will attract a higher caliber of professional, and then the money and respect will follow. I have said it before, and it isn't popular. The reason nursing isn't respected is because it is populated by people who simply aren't going to gain respect from other professionals. We need to get rid of them. Raise the bar, weed them out. I don't want girls who look and act like they belong on the pole representing nursing. I don't want Gomer Pyle representing nursing. I don't want idiots representing nursing. I don't want Jerry Springer guest material representing nursing. Raise the bar. Let's get rid of them.

    You want nursing to be elite, start only accepting elite into the ranks.

    Argue too strenuously with this, and I'm going to assume you fall into one of the Gomer Pyle or Springer categories.
    Amen!! I couldn't agree with you more!
    VICEDRN likes this.
  2. Visit  kelll profile page
    1
    OK. The unit I work on has some issue with this as well. There are a few things that cause problems. The biggest issue is that in some facilities the nursing student or student nurse interns or resident nurses are put on the floor at the same time. Any given day we may have a student in some capacity with each nurse including the charge nurse. This may be added to the fact that some of the staff are newer themselves and need help from the more expirienced nurses on the floor.
    So from an expirienced nurse perspective it can be difficult. We are stretched very thin at times, and these days most times! I would never dream of not welcoming any new person to the unit or purposely being rude or not teaching something interesting. Since I once was a student I understand how one amy feel slighted some days or incertian rotations.
    Some suggestions I have include: please do not start your first day on a new unit bad mouthing the last place you were from especially if its in the same facility chances are we know some of the nurses you are less than happy with and we expect you will say the same things about us when you leave...just a bad way to start out. Please do not feel we are being unfair by asking for your help with patient care many times it is the policy of the unit that our students help with things like baths, feeding, turning patients etc, and a good attitude goes a long way. We know you want to see the hands on nitty gritty tasks we do and have a chance to help with this and I ask daily if the newbys want to assist with dressing changes, help with a bedside procedure when the doc requests a hand, and I cannot tell you how many times I cant find one person to help when the help is needed...but I do hear multiple complaints that nothing exciting went on for anyone to see...well when oppurtunity knocks!...do you honestly think we have time to cram everyone elses agenda into our day?..we have to make time...take time and smile while we do it. Last thing do not stand around chatting and expect to be invited to each room...you see the nurse you are with moving..you move.

    I remember how scarey new things were when I was a student. Do not refuse to place a foley or start an IV or do those things that take some time and expirience to learn...we know its tough but what is gonna happen when you are all alone and expected to do these things routinely. I can tell the difference between new nurses who jump at the chance to help and learn and those who avoid situations for fear of failure...it ends up causing issue until faced.

    I apologize that nurses are so stressed. It took time for the staff to get to know each other and it takes time for us to know you also as a student and to understand your expectations from the expirience. I agree it takes alot of patience and understanding on both sides of this matter. In the end I love the students, the perspective is fresh and it adds variety to the day as well...but no one wants to be uncomfortable all day but it happens.
    xtxrn likes this.
  3. Visit  hiddencatRN profile page
    3
    Quote from All4Seasons
    That's a low brow response from you,isn't it, Linear Thinker? I thought you prided yourself on your intellect. Perhaps you didn't understand the question
    Does low brow mean something different in Canada than it does in the US? Because arguing for stricter admissions standards would, if anything, be elitist. Fart jokes and slapstick are low brow.
    kids, CCL RN, and xtxrn like this.
  4. Visit  VICEDRN profile page
    1
    Quote from xtxrn
    Have a ball in your padded-staff situation...pray you never hit the floors as a staff nurse there.

    Techs aren't allowed to do all of that in every state...you want those patients sent to your lovely little Nirvana of so many unlicensed staff???

    If you did bedside nursing, you'd probably get it- aside from just wanting to let someone else do the job....?????

    And skills being required for assessment skills wasn't my issue- of course they're different. They need BOTH.

    So...here is the reality of my job. The real, grown up reality. I have five patients at any given time, most of them fairly critical because this is the regional trauma center in a large urban center. There is one tech for 30 patients and the phleb covers closer to 100 patients. The phleb might draw labs on one of my patients at some point during my shift. The tech changes out dirty linens carts and hides somewhere deep in the hospital for the rest of the shift. (Unless it happens to be a nursing student who hangs about doing nothing related to actual tech stuff.)


    Otherwise, I must do all of your precious skills for every single one of the countless patients I see. Draw labs, start IVs, foleys, NGs. Unless of course one of the unlicensed unsupervised med students does it...

    While I do it, (and speaking of reality) I consider the fact that the hospital probably employs $10/hr phlebs and techs to draw labs and do other unlicensed skills because they don't want to pay me $23/hr to do so and I wonder how long until they bump the patient load up for me and start demanding that the tech show up to do the tasks. The REALITY is that it makes no business sense to pay me to do the work.

    As for what other states protect, I am aware that plenty of states protect plenty of activities for nurses. I feel comfortable that sooner or later that will end or the decent salary that is associated with the same will erode as healthcare and really nursing advances past a lot of skills that really don't require a nurse to do them.

    Do I mind doing the tasks? No. Its mindless work. It is similar to untangling my phone cord or unraveling string. I do "bedside nurse" in the ER and I do get "it." I just don't agree with it. that's the part you have dead right. The new grads don't need skills and I assume they start with none and caution them outloud in person (because I am a real person) not to get all hung up on what they can and can't do. It'll come in time but they need to be sure and holler if someone starts, you know, crumping.

    To the poster who states ER needs the floor for throughput: As for where the patients go after they leave the ER, most return out the front door. I really don't care whether or not you accept report from me or "hold" your beds. I will just do what any professional does: document and calmly contact my supervisor. Its not my problem if you choose to interfere with the throughput in the ER and sensible calm people resolve these issues without judgment or reservation.
    CCL RN likes this.
  5. Visit  linearthinker profile page
    3
    Quote from hiddencatRN
    Does low brow mean something different in Canada than it does in the US? Because arguing for stricter admissions standards would, if anything, be elitist. Fart jokes and slapstick are low brow.
    Lol. Don't you love it when the silly little insults and digs don't even make sense?
    OCNRN63, CCL RN, and hiddencatRN like this.
  6. Visit  snazzy-jazzy profile page
    6
    Just want to say to the OP, oh well at least you tried.

    Over my last 4 years as a student I have been made to feel like the dirt under someones nursing shoe about 3 times. I have had a lot more great experiences with both Nurses and Midwives, that have made me feel a part of their team. That have said thankyou to me, when I have thanked them for sharing their shift with me. And I never have an instructor come to the floor and do skills with me, all my skills are done with the nurse or midwife.

    I really can't get over how high and mighty some people on this thread think they are. Yes I get that you hate pesky students, but is there any need to be so rude about it. After reading this thread, I think its important for other students who may be reading this to remember that the nurses bagging out having students only represent a small minority of nurses and not all nurses.
    kelll, DaughteroftheKing, debstmomy, and 3 others like this.
  7. Visit  DL-SNUP profile page
    3
    Quote from snazzy-jazzy
    Just want to say to the OP, oh well at least you tried.

    Over my last 4 years as a student I have been made to feel like the dirt under someones nursing shoe about 3 times. I have had a lot more great experiences with both Nurses and Midwives, that have made me feel a part of their team. That have said thankyou to me, when I have thanked them for sharing their shift with me. And I never have an instructor come to the floor and do skills with me, all my skills are done with the nurse or midwife.

    I really can't get over how high and mighty some people on this thread think they are. Yes I get that you hate pesky students, but is there any need to be so rude about it. After reading this thread, I think its important for other students who may be reading this to remember that the nurses bagging out having students only represent a small minority of nurses and not all nurses.
    Thanks! At the end of the day, the message that I was trying to get across is that "This is how it is". Whether or it is or isn't fair, nurses have to work with students. That's real life nursing. But it's not fair to punish each other for something that neither party can help....and being constantly negative, angry, and bitter will not facilitate patient care. Because I don't care what anyone says---when you're in a bad mood, it's going to come off to your patient. If you're busy being annoyed that you have a student/the RN your working with isn't 'nice', you're taking time that could be spent a) learning something and b)helping your patient.

    I'm not asking for nurses to become the teachers of students, or to be excited about having one. I'm simply asking for some understanding that poor attitudes are a waste of time and energy, and don't benefit anyone. Sure, sometimes you can't help and you'll be annoyed. I get that. But getting an attitude adjustment will go along way (on both sides).

    Students need to realize they aren't the center of the universe, that the patient is. And the nurses need to stop taking their frustrations with the system out on the students. At the end of the day, I'm hoping that most of us, registered or not, are semi-intelligent people who deserve respect. Treat people how you would want your mother/father or daughter/son to be treated in their situation.

    Seriously...we're all adults, and we should all act like it. That goes for nurses and students across the board--there is NO excuse for cruelty.
    ProfRN4, SeeTheMoon, and xtxrn like this.
  8. Visit  xtxrn profile page
    5
    Quote from vicedrn
    so...here is the reality of my job. the real, grown up reality. i have five patients at any given time, most of them fairly critical because this is the regional trauma center in a large urban center. there is one tech for 30 patients and the phleb covers closer to 100 patients. the phleb might draw labs on one of my patients at some point during my shift. the tech changes out dirty linens carts and hides somewhere deep in the hospital for the rest of the shift. (unless it happens to be a nursing student who hangs about doing nothing related to actual tech stuff.)


    otherwise, i must do all of your precious skills for every single one of the countless patients i see. draw labs, start ivs, foleys, ngs. unless of course one of the unlicensed unsupervised med students does it...

    while i do it, (and speaking of reality) i consider the fact that the hospital probably employs $10/hr phlebs and techs to draw labs and do other unlicensed skills because they don't want to pay me $23/hr to do so and i wonder how long until they bump the patient load up for me and start demanding that the tech show up to do the tasks. the reality is that it makes no business sense to pay me to do the work.

    as for what other states protect, i am aware that plenty of states protect plenty of activities for nurses. i feel comfortable that sooner or later that will end or the decent salary that is associated with the same will erode as healthcare and really nursing advances past a lot of skills that really don't require a nurse to do them.

    do i mind doing the tasks? no. its mindless work. it is similar to untangling my phone cord or unraveling string. i do "bedside nurse" in the er and i do get "it." i just don't agree with it. that's the part you have dead right. the new grads don't need skills and i assume they start with none and caution them outloud in person (because i am a real person) not to get all hung up on what they can and can't do. it'll come in time but they need to be sure and holler if someone starts, you know, crumping.

    to the poster who states er needs the floor for throughput: as for where the patients go after they leave the er, most return out the front door. i really don't care whether or not you accept report from me or "hold" your beds. i will just do what any professional does: document and calmly contact my supervisor. its not my problem if you choose to interfere with the throughput in the er and sensible calm people resolve these issues without judgment or reservation.

    what you don't seem to get is that your reality isn't the only one out there.....the floors have a very different reality that relies on assessment and technical skills. i never worked in a facility where someone did the ngs, ivs, foleys, chest tube maintenance, cvc maintenance, etc....it's the bedside nurse that does it.

    great....you have "underlings" to do the 'mindless' work....have a ball.....but why so ballistic about what is fact for a lot more floors than eds.... ???? why can't you understand that the floors don't work the same way eds do? and the nurses there need to know what to do with the actual skills .... this is such old information.... and maybe that's the issue- you don't know how it's done on the floors because you've never worked them? idk- but it sure sounds like you're not understanding what nurses on the floors actually do. ed bedside isn't the same as the floor at all....you have a much different set of stressors and demands. but that doesn't mean that the floor nurses who need new nurses to not be lacking in the basics are not living in "reality"....

    they aren't "my" skills.....they're basic "get-out-of-school" and be useful skills - the bottom of the barrel skills that many aren't getting. they are the ones who say so....not my battle anymore.

    the volume of patients you see is way different than the floors- of course you need ancillary staff, and have different priorities. duh. that doesn't change the floor nurse load a bit. yep- most ed folks go home. and some times you get slammed and are waiting on the floors to empty out and rearrange things so you can free up beds- i understand that. but don't knock what you don't work.

    getting bored with the superiority....
  9. Visit  DL-SNUP profile page
    2
    Quote from xtxrn
    [B][I][SIZE="3"]

    They aren't "my" skills.....they're basic "get-out-of-school" and be useful skills - the bottom of the barrel skills that many aren't getting. THEY are the ones who say so....not my battle anymore.
    You know, I do see what you're saying...but sometimes it can't be helped. For example, I've never inserted an NG tube. Most of my classmates have, but I've never had a patient who has needed one. I know the theory behind how to do one, and I've performed it on a dummy....but I know it's not the same as doing it on a patient. Is there anything my school can do about that? Not really, unless an instructor wants to let me do it on them. And it does get frustrating as a student when you miss these opportunities. For example, last week I had a patient who needed one, but the nurse inserted it without thinking about it. It would have taken two seconds for her to grab me and my clinical faculty and have us do it (my clinical faculty is also employed by the hospital as an RN, so it's definitely within her scope to do). She simply didn't think about it. And while I'm not mad and definitely understand what it's like to get in the grove of it, that opportunity might not present itself again before I graduate. So on one hand, I do see what you're saying. It has to be frustrating to be an experienced nurse having to do an NG tube type of thing with a student. But on the other hand...sometimes it can't be helped, especially with things that students can't practice on each other (ie....IVs, blood draws, so forth)....
    SeeTheMoon and xtxrn like this.
  10. Visit  xtxrn profile page
    0
    Quote from DL-SNUP
    You know, I do see what you're saying...but sometimes it can't be helped. For example, I've never inserted an NG tube. Most of my classmates have, but I've never had a patient who has needed one. I know the theory behind how to do one, and I've performed it on a dummy....but I know it's not the same as doing it on a patient. Is there anything my school can do about that? Not really, unless an instructor wants to let me do it on them. And it does get frustrating as a student when you miss these opportunities. For example, last week I had a patient who needed one, but the nurse inserted it without thinking about it. It would have taken two seconds for her to grab me and my clinical faculty and have us do it (my clinical faculty is also employed by the hospital as an RN, so it's definitely within her scope to do). She simply didn't think about it. And while I'm not mad and definitely understand what it's like to get in the grove of it, that opportunity might not present itself again before I graduate. So on one hand, I do see what you're saying. It has to be frustrating to be an experienced nurse having to do an NG tube type of thing with a student. But on the other hand...sometimes it can't be helped, especially with things that students can't practice on each other (ie....IVs, blood draws, so forth)....
    I understand that - and that's my beef with the education you guys got- NOT you personally. You needed to get that stuff (as much as possible- I get that patients don't just appear w/stuff you need to do ). I was GLAD to help a newbie do stuff- but it was very helpful if they had the basic info re: equipment needed, measuring the tube, etc.... Being new isn't the issue....it's the long list of things SO many here have said they don't get to do (or even get much exposure to) AND they don't know how to walk through it verbally- at least partially (I expect some stuff to be missing simply from not having done them). I don't blame the students- they're doing what the CI tells them to....you're stuck.

    It's just really new to the older folks that this stuff is taking a back seat when bedside care of some sort is where most folks end up, at least initially.
  11. Visit  VICEDRN profile page
    1
    Quote from xtxrn
    .

    great....you have "underlings" to do the 'mindless' work....have a ball.....but why so ballistic about what is fact for a lot more floors than eds.... ???? why can't you understand that the floors don't work the same way eds do? and the nurses there need to know what to do with the actual skills .... this is such old information.... and maybe that's the issue- you don't know how it's done on the floors because you've never worked them? idk- but it sure sounds like you're not understanding what nurses on the floors actually do. ed bedside isn't the same as the floor at all....you have a much different set of stressors and demands. but that doesn't mean that the floor nurses who need new nurses to not be lacking in the basics are not living in "reality"....

    i don't have underlings to do mindless skills, do i? i basically told you that in the last post. i do them myself. for the record, the phlebs draw labs on the floor here too and i know a fair number of rns that have never started an iv because several of the big local hospitals insist that you call iv team! plenty of resources at lots of places, perhaps just not at yours!

    for the record, i spent 6 months on a floor at the end of nursing school in a preceptorship (my preceptor read a book while i did her job) and i have tons of friends that work on floors and i try very hard to follow their stories too! it is different but i sure hope the floor folks know their pharm before they worry about their skills.

    i guess if they lack skills, they can come slow their roll with me. i don't mind and i think they can pick it up quick. after all, i graduated nursing school without dropping an ng into a patient and i survived my very first ng on a patient ok!

    i will repeat again: i don't really care what they think about getting their skills in. its an easy frustration. the students want to be a nurse and they don't really understand that doesn't mean skills!
    xtxrn likes this.
  12. Visit  xtxrn profile page
    0
    Peace


    But I guarantee it's not just the places I've worked
    Last edit by xtxrn on Oct 2, '11
  13. Visit  carolmaccas66 profile page
    6
    Quote from DL-SNUP
    You know, I do see what you're saying...but sometimes it can't be helped. For example, I've never inserted an NG tube. Most of my classmates have, but I've never had a patient who has needed one. I know the theory behind how to do one, and I've performed it on a dummy....but I know it's not the same as doing it on a patient. Is there anything my school can do about that? Not really, unless an instructor wants to let me do it on them. And it does get frustrating as a student when you miss these opportunities. For example, last week I had a patient who needed one, but the nurse inserted it without thinking about it. It would have taken two seconds for her to grab me and my clinical faculty and have us do it (my clinical faculty is also employed by the hospital as an RN, so it's definitely within her scope to do). She simply didn't think about it. And while I'm not mad and definitely understand what it's like to get in the grove of it, that opportunity might not present itself again before I graduate. So on one hand, I do see what you're saying. It has to be frustrating to be an experienced nurse having to do an NG tube type of thing with a student. But on the other hand...sometimes it can't be helped, especially with things that students can't practice on each other (ie....IVs, blood draws, so forth)....
    OK your illogic is getting to me now, I must say. Please read this statement carefully:
    Sometimes RNs DO NOT have 'JUST 2 SECONDS' to grab you and show you what to do! We get very, very BUSY, sometimes insanely so. I have already detailed on here what some nights in my ED are like.
    You are riding on a high-horsed idealistic wind: the real world is so very different from that of a student. Things never just take '2 seconds' sorry, but you are not living in reality! It would be lovely if we always had the time to teach, but when procedures have to be done fast, or people are bleeding out, it's just not possible.
    You won't learn everything on EVERY PATIENT either. Give yourself a go! You are jumping the gun and worrying you won't get taught everything - you can still learn some of these skills when u become a RN.
    Stop worrying your life away and just learn what you can. You won't ever know everything anyway.
    Goodness, stop stressing! Enjoy being a student, stop obsessing over why the RN hasn't grabbed me/taught me this/shown me that etc, and learn all that you can.
    kelll, wooh, Mrs. SnowStormRN, and 3 others like this.

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