This "us" vs "them" mentality....

[DL-SNUP]

I've been reading through the posts from the last few days, and I'm completely astonished by the "us" vs "them" mentality that is showing up between the nursing students and the staff nurses.

Maybe I'm idealistic, but shouldn't we be trying to work as cohesively as possible so that we can combine forces and provide the best care possible for our patients? It seems to me like we're both equally to blame for the issues that seem to be going on. On one hand, it seems like nursing students need to be more willing to contribute and gain some perspective, realizing that while the staff nurse should *try* to teach us, it isn't their main focus. On the other hand, it seems like a lot of staff nurses are going into clinical situations with a negative attitude about working with students, which I really think can only make matters worse.

Can we really care for patients effectively if we're not on the same page and being professional to each other? I personally don't think so. I think that in any customer service business, having issues behind the scenes like this WILL impact the patient. And I'm so tired of all the finger pointing, because both sides are making mistakes. As a student, I am more than willing to admit that I have been less than enthusiastic when asked to perform something I've done a million times. It happens, and when I realize I've done it I try to change my attitude and do better next time.

Instead of all this negativity, why can't we just try to learn from each other, and accept and navigate the limitations of the time together? Students can learn SO much from staff nurses, and (believe it or not) once in a while a staff nurse can learn a new thing from a student. If we can accept that we're all (hopefully) intelligent individuals united in the fact that we chose nursing to help the patients, and see each other as imperfect people who face constrictions based on our role, it seems like everything would go more smoothly.

I know that it's not all nurses and students that are acting this way....it's just incredibly discouraging to see such a lack of teamwork from the members of this community. At the end of the day, all the students of today will be your coworkers soon, staff nurses. And students, soon we'll all have students that stress us out and make more work for us. Can't we accept that and learn from each other?

Sorry for the ranting....I guess my point is this:

Let's meet halfway.

Students: The nurses are stressed out and busy. Try to help. Ask what THEY want you to do. Tell them that you understand they are busy, but that you would appreciate anything they can teach you. SAY THANK YOU. Realize that it's about the patient. If that means that you miss getting to d/c a central line, there is always next time. If it means that you have to help out what with ADLS, I/Os, etc...realize that you WILL learn from that as well. Be grateful for the opportunity to learn anything you can, and always try to be understanding.

Nurses: Realize that a lot of students *do* realize that you don't want us around. We know that it's not your choice to have a student, but realize that we're not there to ruin your day. Realize that most students want to learn from you and value/idolize how much you know. We're sorry that we're often thought of as an annoyance or an extra task, because all we want is to learn from you so that we can care for our pts as well as you do.

Communicate with us. Today, I worked with a nurse who had 2 pts and was getting her 3 admits all at once. All it took was her saying to me "hey, I'm super busy right now. Can you keep an eye on pt 1 and 2 while I admit these new pts? I'll come find you when it calms down or if there is something I think you could really learn from". Seriously, 3 sentences and I was able to feel like I was helping and not simply being ignored. I don't care how busy you are, but communicating with your team (and a student is a part of that team) is such a priority.

Like I said, maybe I'm just idealistic. But from my experience with other jobs and life in general, if we can just take a deep breath and do our best to make the "behind the scenes" dynamics positive, it will help our patients. Because at the end of the day, that's what ALL of us really want, right?

[linearthinker, DNP, RN]

I think nursing needs to do a better job of weeding people out. Let's start with requiring some SAT scores comparable to the other professional schools, which means no more of this community college for RNs stuff. It's nonsense. Professionals have college degrees (don't bother with the "I know a BSN who is a terrible nurse" crap- you will not convince me). The NCLEX needs to be much harder, and much more expensive. CEU requirements need to be more stringent, as in more rigorous, and more of them. In addition, RNs should have to reboard every 5 years, just like physicians.

I honestly think if you weed out the lowest common denominator you will attract a higher caliber of professional, and then the money and respect will follow. I have said it before, and it isn't popular. The reason nursing isn't respected is because it is populated by people who simply aren't going to gain respect from other professionals. We need to get rid of them. Raise the bar, weed them out. I don't want girls who look and act like they belong on the pole representing nursing. I don't want Gomer Pyle representing nursing. I don't want idiots representing nursing. I don't want Jerry Springer guest material representing nursing. Raise the bar. Let's get rid of them.

You want nursing to be elite, start only accepting elite into the ranks.

Argue too strenuously with this, and I'm going to assume you fall into one of the Gomer Pyle or Springer categories.

[woahmelly]

I think the problem is that staff nurses are being over worked. When I went to nursing school we had a clinical instructor on the floor. We asked the CI all of our questions and disturbed the RN as little as possible. Now there is no CI on the floor and students are assigned to work with the RNs. We don't get a lighter assignment or extra money. I don't think this is fair to any party involved.

But to answer you question yes you are being idealistic. But I like it, I was idealistic once and according to older RNs I still am.

No clinical instructor? Wow. I'd be lost without mine, and I know the nurses would probably kick us out on our bums without her there for us to ask questions.

[All4Seasons]

Linear Thinker says," the reason nursing isn't respected is" ; my question for him/ her is, isn't respected by whom? That is a massive generalization.

[xtxrn, ASN, RN]

We don't respect each other....why should anyone else?

[No Stars In My Eyes]

I'm not an RN, I am an LPN, and though I was trained FOREVER ago, they key word in my training was PRACTCAL. We had clinicals in which we repeatedly practiced what we learned in theory. When I was sprung from nursing school I was ready, willing and able to DO all the skills that were required of me AND was able to back them up with the practice of making assessments because clinicals weren't just a matter of knowing how, but knowing why. Even if I wasn't signing off on my assessments, I had to damn well have the substance to back them up. I knew my scope of practice peripheries, but I also knew my "stuff". And I have been told by many that I needed to 'get' my RN. NO WAY! I like being a grunt! That used to be the only little corner of nursing where being a good bedside nurse was at the fore. Of course, now things have changed, and pfft...who needs the LPN anymore, huh?It didn't used to be the "us" vs. "them" mentality. And staff nurses were not expected to hold our hands. WE were expected to hold our own, because we were trained THOROUGHLY before we graduated.....by our clinical instructors. There was also the opportunity to learn new skills, but that was at the discretion of the facility at which you worked and was undertaken by that facility. But, you were no longer a student, you were a colleague.

[xtxrn, ASN, RN]

I'm not an RN, I am an LPN, and though I was trained FOREVER ago, they key word in my training was PRACTCAL. We had clinicals in which we repeatedly practiced what we learned in theory. When I was sprung from nursing school I was ready, willing and able to DO all the skills that were required of me AND was able to back them up with the practice of making assessments because clinicals weren't just a matter of knowing how, but knowing why. Even if I wasn't signing off on my assessments, I had to damn well have the substance to back them up. I knew my scope of practice peripheries, but I also knew my "stuff". And I have been told by many that I needed to 'get' my RN. NO WAY! I like being a grunt! That used to be the only little corner of nursing where being a good bedside nurse was at the fore. Of course, now things have changed, and pfft...who needs the LPN anymore, huh?It didn't used to be the "us" vs. "them" mentality. And staff nurses were not expected to hold our hands. WE were expected to hold our own, because we were trained THOROUGHLY before we graduated.....by our clinical instructors. There was also the opportunity to learn new skills, but that was at the discretion of the facility at which you worked and was undertaken by that facility. But, you were no longer a student, you were a colleague.

:rckn::yelclap::cheers:

[trauma_lama, BSN]

I'm a student. I'm a relatively new student, so my experiences are limited, but I have no problems with staff nurses in clinical. I do the very best I can to figure things out on my own when I can, and when I can't I try to ask my clinical instructor before troubling a staff nurse with it. When I can't find my CI or if my question is too unit-specific for my CI, I ask a staff nurse. Also, I generally give pt care and helping my nurse as much weight as completing my clinical assignments- aside from wanting to make a good impression on the staff in case I ever end up applying for a job there, I just can't stand to sit around and watch someone else do work that I know how to do and is within my scope as an SN/CNA.

Maybe its just my clinical location...I could have just gotten really lucky...but the staff nurses are patient with me and seem to really hope for my success and getting the best education I can get...One even took a few minutes aside the other day to break down an ekg and showed me how to find a first degree AV block!

I agree that there are a lot of students who have IQs of a box of teddybears...and the work ethic of a wet noodle...they make me look bad in clinical, and make all of us look bad to the public. I think they should make nursing school admission standards more stringent. There were 30 alternates for my program when I was admitted who didn't get in because they didn't have points to be competitive with those who did get in...however, enough people had to forfeit their spot in the program for various reasons (financial, scheduling, etc) that every single alternate got into the program. Some alternates had fewer points simply because they had not yet completed all their prereqs, but there were some who had scraped by on their prereqs, gotten mostly Cs in classes like A&P, pathophysiology and the other basics...Please tell me why they are in the same class as me? I am not meaning to sound arrogant at all and I do not think that I am better than the classmates I'm referring to. Either they were smart enough to get the grades but too lazy to try, or they did not have the aptitude to understand basic health concepts...would you want somebody that's too lazy to make an effort in very important career-foundational courses caring for you or a loved one? Or someone who has no aptitude in the basic field cornerstone courses?

I realize that nurses do not requires as much schooling as doctors, but nurses are on the frontlines of pt care and have the power and opportunites to save just as many lives as doctors if not more. So why should nurses not have equally high expectations for schooling??

okay getting off soap box now. I think we as nurses (and NS) determine to a great degree how the general public views our profession- so it's time to get more selective about who gets to determine how our profession is viewed!

[BeenThereDoneThat74, MSN, RN]

I think nursing needs to do a better job of weeding people out. Let's start with requiring some SAT scores comparable to the other professional schools, which means no more of this community college for RNs stuff. It's nonsense. Professionals have college degrees (don't bother with the "I know a BSN who is a terrible nurse" crap- you will not convince me). The NCLEX needs to be much harder, and much more expensive. CEU requirements need to be more stringent, as in more rigorous, and more of them. In addition, RNs should have to reboard every 5 years, just like physicians.

I honestly think if you weed out the lowest common denominator you will attract a higher caliber of professional, and then the money and respect will follow. I have said it before, and it isn't popular. The reason nursing isn't respected is because it is populated by people who simply aren't going to gain respect from other professionals. We need to get rid of them. Raise the bar, weed them out. I don't want girls who look and act like they belong on the pole representing nursing. I don't want Gomer Pyle representing nursing. I don't want idiots representing nursing. I don't want Jerry Springer guest material representing nursing. Raise the bar. Let's get rid of them.

You want nursing to be elite, start only accepting elite into the ranks.

Argue too strenuously with this, and I'm going to assume you fall into one of the Gomer Pyle or Springer categories.

And all this, because our society tells us "we can be whatever we want to be". The generation that was treated with kid-gloves is growing up in a time of recession and massive unemployment. A time where you can't be whatever you want to be.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

Raise the bar. Let's get rid of them.

You want nursing to be elite, start only accepting elite into the ranks.

But what if it's their dReAm to tAkE cArE oF pEoPlE????

[trauma_lama, BSN]

But what if it's their dReAm to tAkE cArE oF pEoPlE????

BAAAAhahahaha. hit the nail on the head. "omg, i just want to help people, ya'll!" if it were handwriting it'd be big and bubbly with hearts over the "i"s. hahaha! with a picture of said student making out with her boyfriend with a huge mixed drink in her hand at spring break last year.

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

You want nursing to be elite, start only accepting elite into the ranks.

I see your point, but the "elite" need to be trained while in nursing school and far beyond nursing school. The nursing profession will still encounter the need to train, regardless of how elite a student is/was. That's the point of this thread.

No matter how smart a student or new grad is, OJT is key. Of course, you have the experienced nurses with 100 years of floor work who claim that they were on their own by hour 1. Ok, I get that--I may not completely believe it, but I get it. In today's environment, it just doesn't happen. That's the environment we have to work with....or change.

On all measures that determine who is elite prior to being accepted into nursing school and while in nursing school, I was definitely one of them. However, that doesn't change the fact that when I walked onto a floor as a student and now as a working nurse, I'm still a newbie that needs training. With that evidence, should we change the educational model for nurses once again? I say...definitely maybe.

My school was short on skills, but big on critical thinking, patho, and pharm. While I wish that I knew the hands-on skills to make everyone's job easier, give me a couple tries, and I got it. The skills aren't rocket science. The thinking is. Regardless, I still need help with that thinking. Even if my floated ideas are, 9 times out of 10, confirmed by my preceptor as correct, I still need help even if I was/am "elite."

[linearthinker, DNP, RN]

I really do think a really good place to start would be to start requiring nurses to reboard every 5 years. We could lose a lot of ballast that way immediately. Let's face, a great many people who presently hold RN licenses should not. We should purge the ranks.

Basic literacy would also be good criteria.