Ok this may be a rant but.... - page 2
by PNicholas | 5,664 Views | 51 Comments
Why does it seem that most people believe that ADN programs are not as good as BSN programs?! Do we not all take NCLEX? Do we not all have the same goals...to be good caring nurses? Why is there such a distinction made amongst... Read More
- 4Aug 8, '12 by LCinTrainingQuote from lovedijahTHIS is an excellent point. We are all in this together and there is no need to try to one up each other. I come at this as an EMT and it frustrates me knowing that with my 6 months of education that basically prepares me to merely package a patient for safe delivery to the people who CAN actually help them, that my fellow EMTs think they know more than doctors. Why? Because they aren't in the field? WHAT? I try to explain, most ER docs get their start in EMS. EMTs are a dime a dozen in med school. We don't get to play that card. And please don't come to work telling me that your last shift you proudly went off on a doctor and told him his course of action in the emergency situation you delivered to him was stupid or "idiotic". Last I checked he knows much more about the human body than we do.
I think thats the issue for some people. Don't act like their BSN isn't "important", and they won't act like your ADN isn't "important". It goes both ways.
The same way ADNs want a distinction from LPNs. The same way LPNs don't want to be called CNAs. The same way CNAs don't want to be called dietary staff who just pass trays or whatever else.
Just my thoughts.
It all boils down to respect for your fellow co workers. I am blessed to work in a facility where we have it from the director of nursing down to the CNAs. Yes there are a couple bad apples, but we don't let that ruin us. When I was accepted into nursing school, my DON danced in the hallway for me and gave me a big hug. People I didn't even know at the time came up congratulating me. It was surreal. Our charge nurse does not stay behind the desk. She is often on the floor helping when things get stressful. My nurses that I work with on a nightly shift respect the knowledge base I come into the hospital with and they trust me to do my job and inform them when things change. As a nurse's aid, I could say "I have more experience in the medical field than that new nurse over there", but so what? My job is to be her aide. My job is to insure she is able to do her job. As such I do everything in my power to support them even if it's a matter of holding open some legs so they can get a better view of the urethra.
They teach me something new daily. I sometimes come up with something good to teach them. It goes both ways and if we have mutual respect, the job will run much smoother and our patients will have a better experience.
- 0Aug 8, '12 by BostonFNP, MSN, DNP, NP GuideQuote from PNicholasCurious, have you read the IOM report? What are your thoughts on it?Why does it seem that most people believe that ADN programs are not as good as BSN programs?! Do we not all take NCLEX? Do we not all have the same goals...to be good caring nurses? Why is there such a distinction made amongst us?? I do not understand why there is not more compassion among nurses!! I just would really like to know what makes one program better than another?
I honestly think posts from people looking for the fast, easy, and/or cheap way is what gives ADN programs a bad rap (outside of the IOM recommendations).
- 1Aug 8, '12 by BelleNscrubs04BSN's have spent the extra hour to gain extra knowledge. I think it's admirable and commendable. In many cases, the extra couse work and college experience does help them to gain a broader prospective and therefore enable better critical thinking.
I am an ADN student. Like many of my classmates, I already have a broad college experience prior to nursing. I decided to take the ADN route because It was more affordable and in my particular area it's still easy to find jobs with an ADN. I plan to get my feet wet as a bedside nurse and gain actual experience in healthcare before I return to school for my BS in nursing, and hopefully on to my Doctorate eventually. I already have excellent critical thinking skills so I'm more focused on learning and improving my bedside skills initiallly. If the economy picks up, my future employer might even foot some of the bill for my higher education. I know getting a BS, in my case, will help me to learn more about nursing theory which will be important to me in the future after I've experienced being an entry level bedside nurse.
- 1Aug 8, '12 by Fearless_leaderfirst off it's ok to rant. i know i do.lol... i am enrolled into an adn program. once i graduate i do plan to enroll in bsn program, but i would prefer to get back into my former place of employment first so they can pay for my bsn program. at first i never wanted to a bsn, but lately like you said in your post everyone is talking about a bsn being better. to be honest if all you want is an adn go for it! just be on the look out for future changes. i know at the hosptial that i look to return too are looking for more bsn grads but, it's not perferred. do what is best for you.
why does it seem that most people believe that adn programs are not as good as bsn programs?! i can't answer that one & i never heard anyone say one is better than the other. maybe i need to mingle more with nursing students pass and present.
do we not all take nclex? yes
do we not all have the same goals...to be good caring nurses? yes some of us do. some are in it to save lives. others for money.
why is there such a distinction made amongst us?? again never came across this.
i do not understand why there is not more compassion among nurses!! i don't know who you have been hanging around, but as a former pca who worked for one of the best hospitals in south florida. the rn's i know and the ones who are pre nursing students really show compassion for each other. in additon to the hosptial i worked for. the nursing moral was off the charts because this "certain hospital district" gave the nurses the tools they needed and wanted, and in return patient satisfaction scores were good and the teamwork was awesome. i'm so glad i'm eligible for rehire.there is nothing like working at a place where you feel someone cares, and for me that is all that matters.
i just would really like to know what makes one program better than another? my opinion is that there is no big difference. except the fact that your able take own more of a leadership role, management. also you have more knowlegeable skills in nursing. i don't think the pay grade is more, but i may be wrong.
i wouldn't worry myself about this. if your happy with an adn then more power to you.
- 0Aug 8, '12 by PNicholasI think the thing I hope for students to realize is going the longer route may help you financially. I see a lot of posts about money concerns and not being able to work while in school. My ADN program allows me to work and go to school. I also took 2 years to get my pre reqs. I used my Pell Grant to cover all my tuition and books so that I could get all my courses for my ADN and BSN. When I graduate in May, it will have taken me 4 years to complete my ADN. Then, I have 1 year of my bridge program to complete my BSN. Yes, that's 1 extra year but, I will graduate with completely no student loan debt. That was extremely important to me because I have four kids and a husband. I am just hoping to raise awareness that if you are like me and can not afford a 4 year program you still have options! You just have to be willing to go slower and take a little longer! I have friends that have gone the LPN to RN then plan to go to BSN and one day MSN! Everyone takes a different path but we all end up in the same place!!
- 0Aug 8, '12 by OB-nurse2013Quote from PNicholasNot sure if you're talkign about my post but if you were it was a joke. If you have been on these boards long enough you will see numerous numerous threads about this and they have a whole section on dedicated to the issue under nursing discussion, I believe. Also my school has had 100% first try NCLEX pass rate for teh alst 2 graduating classes and lose less then 10% of their students so your local situation isn't the norm. People give advice to get a BSN when asked because many areas are preferring or even requiring a BSN for hospital positions. There is an abundance of new graduate nurses in many areas so many hospitals have the opportunity to be picky so if given the choice for a BSN or ADN why not make yourself as marketable as possible?I'm mostly asking this because time and again when people come on these boards asking for advice everyone says go BSN. I am in a program that has a 98% NCLEX passing rate vs. the 4 year college I considered that has a 85% passing rate. I just wonder am I missing some classes that may help me later? I have taken, statistics, chemistry, nutrition, ap I and ii, micro, English comp I and ii, college algebra, speech, and 12 hours of electives. I am taking pharmacology this semester. I just am trying to find out what I am missing...sorry if you felt the need to be rude over a simple question!
- 0Aug 8, '12 by Twinmom06, ASN, RNThe big difference is the nursing theory classes and nursing elective classes...ADN and BSN students take the same general ed's and required non nursing electives (at my school anyway - I go to a satellite campus of a Big Ten school)- the only difference is that the BSN students take Statistics and Nutrition aside from the other General Eds. Otherwise it is 11 or 12 nursing elective classes that make a BSN, a BSN
- 0Aug 9, '12 by nursel56 GuideQuote from PNicholasThis is an excellent question because if you ask one proponent why this is so on Monday, on Tuesday you'll get a different answer.. Often the answer is a sort of vague je ne sais quoi about "polish" "well-rounded", etc. Sometimes it's about being on an advanced practice track, leadership, etc. The reason for the division is mostly due to a campaign waged for forty years to convince people of the inferiority of the associate's degree prepared RN.I'm mostly asking this because time and again when people come on these boards asking for advice everyone says go BSN. I am in a program that has a 98% NCLEX passing rate vs. the 4 year college I considered that has a 85% passing rate. I just wonder am I missing some classes that may help me later?
Let's just say the effort was/is brutal, yet largely unsuccessful prior to the 2002-2009 cohort of new RNs, which is the largest cohort seen in history. The totem pole argument isn't valid because both groups take the same NCLEX and have the same scope of practice, rather than LPN vs CNA, etc.
What does the IOM, populated by the same people who push for a BSN mandate believe those differences to be? Well, they lay it all out, but stop short of calling the associate's degree "cheap and easy" If it were that way, the lobbyists would've long ago convinced state legislatures to narrow the scope of the ADN graduate, or add questions to the NCLEX that would elicit answers only the BSN grad could answer due to their superior education.
Let's assume the IOM Report -while not objective, is the top level of opinion and look at what they believe are the advantages of the BSN, with the jargon deciphered somewhat.
The first paragraph is a bit of a puzzler, because it inexplicably states that patient populations are becoming more diverse, while community based programs make a nursing education program more accessible to low-income and poorly represented groups in the workforce. It then posits that changing demographics and morbidity will result in an emphasis on chronic illnesses, outpatient settings and other venues that fly in the face of the usual argument that only BSNs should be allowed to work in acute care In other words, they were saying the ADN nurses should work in those settings, due to their decreased ability to critically think.
"The ways in which nurses were educated during the 20th century are no longer adequate for dealing with the realities of health care in the 21st century. As patient needs and care environments have become more complex, nurses need to attain requisite competencies."
They're saying ADN nurses aren't capable of learning new things, and those new things are essential to the job.
"to deliver high-quality care. These competencies include leadership, health policy, system improvement, research and evidence-based practice, and teamwork and collaboration, as well as competency in specific content areas such as community and public health and geriatrics."
These points are stated at least twice. so it's fair to say not having enough of those classes is the reason for the differences between the two pathways. But not to leave it there, the report continues to describe what they feel ADN/diploma nurses lack.
"Care within the hospital continues to grow more complex, with nurses having to make critical decisions associated with care for sicker, frailer patients and having to use more sophisticated, life-saving technology coupled with information management systems that require skills in analysis and synthesis."
"Nursing education frequently does not incorporate the intricacies of care coordination and transitions. Nor does it promote the skills needed to negotiate with the health care team, navigate the regulatory and access stipulations that determine patients’ eligibility for enrollment in health and social service programs, or understand how these programs and health policies affect patients and health outcomes".
"New approaches and educational models must be developed to respond to burgeoning information in the field. For example, fundamental concepts that can be applied across all settings and in different situations need to be taught, rather than requiring rote memorization"
They mention the complexity of technology and the inception of EMRs, etc. at least twice, call ADNs "task-oriented", and requiring "rote memorization" I feel if their campaign had true merit it wouldn't need to insult the intelligence of the ADN grads.Last edit by nursel56 on Aug 9, '12
- 0Aug 9, '12 by WannaBNurseyAn RN is an RN, the only reason to get a BSN is to be more marketable or if you want to move into advanced practice nursing. My aunt did a BSN and she was always angry about how BSN and ADN RN's got paid the same even though she had done more work to get a BSN. Her employer didn't think there was a difference between ADN and BSN RN's. The only thing that matters is what your employer thinks.