ethics lecture rant (sensitive topic) - page 5

Today our lecture was on ethics and values in nursing care. We were discussing abortions and our teacher was explaining to us that we can refuse to care for a patient if say they are in the hospital... Read More

  1. by   lmcnabbkv
    Quote from Hellllllo Nurse
    I believe that there are far too many people on this earth. I agree with the organization Zero Population Growth. I have chosen to be child-free.

    I have never refused to care for a woman in labor. I had to do L&D in clinicals, but would never work in L&D because of my beliefs.
    I have provided mt very best, respectful care to teens in labor, although I find their actions, their choices, and the consequesces of such, dispicable.

    Glad to say I didn't come across a nurse like you when I had my daughter. I think this is an extremely ignorant comment (despicable...come on) :angryfire Maybe you should educate yourself on teen mothers who go on be great parents. Hmmm do we stereotype our patients at all??
    To me, these comments only serve to demean our profession. Very sad to hear such words from a "professional" nurse.
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    So what if no one else is available to hang the blood, what if no one else is available to take that pt.?

    I would never expect my facility or co-workers to conform to my moral principles, nor would i even ask them to. Probably because i wouldn't be at a job where i would be running the risk of that happening.

    In other words:
    If certain cosmetic procedures were to start being performed at the facility i work at, i would not refuse to participate, i would quit, and i wouldn't wind p in the newspaper for it, because i wouldn't give "my morals" as the reason why i would be leaving. It is not up to that facility to conform to ME, it's not up to that facility to accomodate my morals, and i'd never even ask them to. This is what i took into consideration before i applied for the job.

    JMO

    I think that's her approach Marie. She has a job where that isn't going to happen, as our facility requires the precense of at least two RNs on the unit at all times. So she would never be in a situation where no one was available, unless by some freak of nature everyone was a JW, but that is unlikely.

    That's the approach I take. I will not under any circumstance ever work in a unit where elective abortions are performed. So my morals/ethics/values in this respect aren't ever going to be tested.

    Obviously as a nurse, my ethics/morals/values are challenged on a daily basis. I've yet to ever refuse to care for an individual because of my moral/ethical belief.......yet.

    I was the charge nurse once where a nurse refused her one assigned patient "because I refuse to pariticpate in the starvation of a patient." (her tube feeding was d/c'd by the family). Rather than force her to conform to another set of values, I reassigned the patient.

    While we have to be nonjudgemental and provide care to patients, we also have to be nonjudgemental and respect the beliefs of each other. If there's the opportunity to reassign an patient, why not?
    Last edit by Tweety on Feb 8, '05
  3. by   Tweety
    Hellllo nurse was only stating that she finds their actions, etc. dispicable, not the patient herself. I'm sure she provided excellent and compassionate care. If someone feels as passionate about the state of the world's population to remain childless, then I can understand the reaction.

    I have to care for a lot of patients in my trauma unit that do some pretty dispicable things to me, such as drinking and driving, drug deals, spouse abuse, even murder, etc.

    We have have behaviors we describe as dispicable, our desicriptions and how react to anothers actions are highly individualized. While I wouldn't call teen sex resulting in pregancy dispicable, I can't judge one who does.

    Many nurses think homosexual sex is dispicable, but care for homosexual AIDS patients when need be.
  4. by   KrisRNwannabe
    When we had this discussion we were told ( not sure if this is something with our state or not) that we could refuse to participate in an abortion but that we could not refuse to care for that patient afterwards. Due to my religious belief i could never participate in such a procedure but i would not refuse to care for her after. I wonder what it is like for jehova witness nurses? I am unfamiliar with a lot of their beliefs. I was watching Discovery health channel where a women had fallen off a chair and hit her head. she developed a large clot that needed surgery and her husband refused on the basis of blood products. It was hard for me to comprehend becasue the doctors said it was not a huge surgery and she would come out fine. but the husband didn't want it. Can someone please comment on this? if you have worked with a jehova witness nurse or are one? I am just curious.

    Kris
  5. by   unknown99
    Quote from CNM-to-be
    I wouldn't refuse to care for any pt. I may not agree w/ them (heck, I don't agree w/ most conventional medical tx but I digress) but as a nurse my job is to care for the pt w/o passing judgement. That said, I am a Conscientious Objector of infant circumcision. When I'm in practice that's one procedure I will not assist. I will care for the pt. after the surgery but I will not help a doc perform cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting pt. I can understand someone being opposed to abortion (they obviously would not work in a PP clinic) but to refuse care to a woman who had complications from one...seems wrong to me. Kind of like me refusing care to a patient w/ CHF who ate McDonald's his whole life when I am a vegetarian, yk?
    My feelings exactly!!! Well said CNM-to-be!!!!!!
  6. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    I think that's her approach Marie. She has a job where that isn't going to happen, as our facility requires the precense of at least two RNs on the unit at all times. So she would never be in a situation where no one was available, unless by some freak of nature everyone was a JW, but that is unlikely.

    That's the approach I take. I will not under any circumstance ever work in a unit where elective abortions are performed. So my morals/ethics/values in this respect aren't ever going to be tested.

    Obviously as a nurse, my ethics/morals/values are challenged on a daily basis. I've yet to ever refuse to care for an individual because of my moral/ethical belief.......yet.

    I was the charge nurse once where a nurse refused her one assigned patient "because I refuse to pariticpate in the starvation of a patient." (her tube feeding was d/c'd by the family). Rather than force her to conform to another set of values, I reassigned the patient.

    While we have to be nonjudgemental and provide care to patients, we also have to be nonjudgemental and respect the beliefs of each other. If there's the opportunity to reassign an patient, why not?
    This is the way we practice too.

    steph
  7. by   lmcnabbkv
    Quote from KrisRNwannabe
    When we had this discussion we were told ( not sure if this is something with our state or not) that we could refuse to participate in an abortion but that we could not refuse to care for that patient afterwards. Due to my religious belief i could never participate in such a procedure but i would not refuse to care for her after. I wonder what it is like for jehova witness nurses? I am unfamiliar with a lot of their beliefs. I was watching Discovery health channel where a women had fallen off a chair and hit her head. she developed a large clot that needed surgery and her husband refused on the basis of blood products. It was hard for me to comprehend becasue the doctors said it was not a huge surgery and she would come out fine. but the husband didn't want it. Can someone please comment on this? if you have worked with a jehova witness nurse or are one? I am just curious.

    Kris
    My Grandmother was a Jehova's Witness and I believe it has to do with the fact thats if they take another person's blood then they are not pure and when "armageddon" comes, they will not be resurrected. I think that's right, don't quote me on it. I just remember that my grandmother would not take blood and even the sight of someone else taking it would bother her. I would assume if that lady you speak of (on Discovery channel) was a child this would have been a case where someone would have had to step in for the childs protection rather than to let her die. Adults are free to choose their own religion and beliefs but I don't think it is right for a child to have such things imposed on them. (Just a thought?) It's similar to a friend I have who knew someone who broke their arm but her family was Christian Science and did not believe in going to the doctor.
  8. by   chilloutrelax
    Maybe it's a southern thing....but I have never heard such strong beliefs about abortion until I went to school in the south.

    Anyway....I would do it absolutely. Would I want to assist in abortions as a nurse? No. Would I want to work in an OBGYN office that performed abortions???....I don't know. I know many think of abortions only being in a clinic, but there are many done in your obgyn office.

    I don't understand why you wouldn't care for her if she had complications from it. Complications...would be hemorrage....maybe they feel that was life?? I don't know. I'm sure many have taken care of murderers, child molestors,etc... Do you take care of a gunshot victim who has just killed another man?? He's a murderer too(if you think of abortion as murder)

    In one way I can see their point though. Maybe they would think of it as helping with murder, or helping with a murderous law. Maybe they feel they would be contributing to this practice of "murder".
  9. by   targa
    If one cannot put aside her/his personal convictions and do the job required (i.e., care for the patient without regard to the nature and/or origin of the underlying condition), then one needs to find another line of work. It's that simple.

    By the way, the word is "despicable". Am I the only one bothered by the atrocious spelling and grammar used by many on this forum? The other day, someone used the phrase, "I didn't know nothing". No one called attention to it.

    Many of us will be charting one day; your words are going to be read by others. Some here need a course in remedial english... what the heck is going on in high schools these days?!?
  10. by   Spidey's mom
    I spelled despicable correctly.

    There are whole threads here on Allnurses related to grammar and spelling.

    Most of the time we cut each other slack due to the nature of what we are doing - typing fast on a bulletin board.

    I do admit to be a stickler about spelling and grammar and double negatives and "I could care less" . .. . but figure it isn't worth getting my panties in a twist.

    steph
  11. by   RedSox33RN
    I figure we all need to remember what we all are - really tired nursing students and/or nurses. I like correct spelling and grammar also, but I know we all have better things to do than scroll in our posts looking for errors. Some may need a course in remedial English, but remember that for some here, English is not their first language either.
  12. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    By the way, the word is "despicable". Am I the only one bothered by the atrocious spelling and grammar used by many on this forum? The other day, someone used the phrase, "I didn't know nothing". No one called attention to it.
    And when i'm at work, there isn't any spelling or grammar errors on anything i fill out.

    The "atrocious" errors do not bother me because 1) everybody makes mistakes, who are we to judge and 2) some ppl's first language isn't English, and you don't necessarily know that about someone.


    What's worse to me is when someone would take it upon themselves to be the Grammar/Spelling Police, and focusing on that alone. It's a nursing forum, not a SpellChecker.

    (Wait, that's right, this thread is about ethics..........)
  13. by   icyounurse
    i once refused to have the same pt i had the night before. he was just so difficult to care for. he was an aids pt who threw feces and urine at me, spit at me, told me nasty stuff everytime i walked in the room, threatened me, ect ect.plus he needed the most extensive dressing change i've ever seen done. just couldn't take it 2 nights in a row. the charge nurse simply assigned him to someone else. reading this i wonder if ethically i had a right to refuse to care for him, in retrospect.

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