ethics lecture rant (sensitive topic)

beautimouslove · Feb 8, 2005

Today our lecture was on ethics and values in nursing care. We were discussing abortions and our teacher was explaining to us that we can refuse to care for a patient if say they are in the hospital because of a serious medical problem due to an abortion. The discussion got a little heated (personally I wouldn't try and refuse to care for anyone unless I felt threatened in some way) but some of the students in my class explained they would never care for a patient who was in the hospital from a problem with an abortion unless obviously no one was available to take over that pt's care. I was surprised a few students felt so strongly about this. I thought a big part of nursing care is to not pass judgement and be as accepting as possible. I realize we're only human but personally I feel that if you have reservations about treating certain pt's because they believe in something you don't...or they have acted in a way that you feel is against your own morals, you're in the wrong profession.
Anyway...a little fired up from the lecture still and wondering how you guys feel about passing a pt on to another nurse and reasons that would make you refuse care to for someone.
(no abortion arguments please)
Ginyer

:angryfire :nono:

Sounds like your school REALLY needs to re-evaluate the true meaning of NURSING and all that it implements. Your instructors should really do a better job. This is HUMAN life we are to take care of.

I am so glad that you are an exception, showing that you can truly make a difference in this flied.

beautimouslove · Feb 8, 2005

I feel very strongly about the oath and pledge we all must take when entering the Medical Field - First and foremost - do no harm!!! When we are faced with a patient in pain, in trouble, etc. - our first duty is not to pass judgement on them and the reason they are in pain, but to help heal them.
I'm not only a Nursing Student, but a devout Roman Catholic, life in any way, shape or form is a precious gift to me. I know I will never take part in ending a life, but also know that I'll be faced with patients that have tried to end their life through attempted suicide, women who are bleeding to death from abortions, etc. My first priority will always be the patient in front of me and what I can do to help them "get well"..
As much as it breaks my heat, It's not my job to judge someone as to why they wanted to end their life or the life of their unborn child. As painful as it is to think about - perhaps they thought that was their only way out or the only option they had. We all know that anyone who is so depressed, stressed out, etc. to go to those extremes is in desperate need of help and that is where we come in - we are here to help them through this and perhaps make a difference in their lives.

:biggringi

This is a must on how to be a nurse. Everyone needs to read your message.

RIGHT ON SISTER.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Feb 8, 2005

I believe that there are far too many people on this earth. I agree with the organization Zero Population Growth. I have chosen to be child-free.

I have never refused to care for a woman in labor. I had to do L&D in clinicals, but would never work in L&D because of my beliefs.

I have provided mt very best, respectful care to teens in labor, although I find their actions, their choices, and the consequesces of such, dispicable.

allnurses Guide · Feb 8, 2005

I believe that there are far too many people on this earth. I agree with the organization Zero Population Growth. I have chosen to be child-free.
I have never refused to care for a woman in labor. I had to do L&D in clinicals, but would never work in L&D because of my beliefs.
I have provided mt very best, respectful care to teens in labor, although I find their actions, their choices, and the consequesces of such, dispicable.

Despicable? That means deserving to be despised. That is a little over the top, I think.

Some teens are giving their babies up for adoption to infertile couples. I know one in particular. I think that is heroic. Granted more teens are choosing to keep their children. And that is a problem most of the time.

steph

lmcnabbkv · Feb 8, 2005

I believe that there are far too many people on this earth. I agree with the organization Zero Population Growth. I have chosen to be child-free.
I have never refused to care for a woman in labor. I had to do L&D in clinicals, but would never work in L&D because of my beliefs.
I have provided mt very best, respectful care to teens in labor, although I find their actions, their choices, and the consequesces of such, dispicable.

Glad to say I didn't come across a nurse like you when I had my daughter. I think this is an extremely ignorant comment (despicable...come on) :angryfire Maybe you should educate yourself on teen mothers who go on be great parents. Hmmm do we stereotype our patients at all??

To me, these comments only serve to demean our profession. :nono: Very sad to hear such words from a "professional" nurse.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Feb 8, 2005

So what if no one else is available to hang the blood, what if no one else is available to take that pt.?
I would never expect my facility or co-workers to conform to my moral principles, nor would i even ask them to. Probably because i wouldn't be at a job where i would be running the risk of that happening.
In other words:
If certain cosmetic procedures were to start being performed at the facility i work at, i would not refuse to participate, i would quit, and i wouldn't wind p in the newspaper for it, because i wouldn't give "my morals" as the reason why i would be leaving. It is not up to that facility to conform to ME, it's not up to that facility to accomodate my morals, and i'd never even ask them to. This is what i took into consideration before i applied for the job.
JMO

I think that's her approach Marie. She has a job where that isn't going to happen, as our facility requires the precense of at least two RNs on the unit at all times. So she would never be in a situation where no one was available, unless by some freak of nature everyone was a JW, but that is unlikely.

That's the approach I take. I will not under any circumstance ever work in a unit where elective abortions are performed. So my morals/ethics/values in this respect aren't ever going to be tested.

Obviously as a nurse, my ethics/morals/values are challenged on a daily basis. I've yet to ever refuse to care for an individual because of my moral/ethical belief.......yet.

I was the charge nurse once where a nurse refused her one assigned patient "because I refuse to pariticpate in the starvation of a patient." (her tube feeding was d/c'd by the family). Rather than force her to conform to another set of values, I reassigned the patient.

While we have to be nonjudgemental and provide care to patients, we also have to be nonjudgemental and respect the beliefs of each other. If there's the opportunity to reassign an patient, why not?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Feb 8, 2005

Hellllo nurse was only stating that she finds their actions, etc. dispicable, not the patient herself. I'm sure she provided excellent and compassionate care. If someone feels as passionate about the state of the world's population to remain childless, then I can understand the reaction.

I have to care for a lot of patients in my trauma unit that do some pretty dispicable things to me, such as drinking and driving, drug deals, spouse abuse, even murder, etc.

We have have behaviors we describe as dispicable, our desicriptions and how react to anothers actions are highly individualized. While I wouldn't call teen sex resulting in pregancy dispicable, I can't judge one who does.

Many nurses think homosexual sex is dispicable, but care for homosexual AIDS patients when need be.

KrisRNwannabe · Feb 8, 2005

When we had this discussion we were told ( not sure if this is something with our state or not) that we could refuse to participate in an abortion but that we could not refuse to care for that patient afterwards. Due to my religious belief i could never participate in such a procedure but i would not refuse to care for her after. I wonder what it is like for jehova witness nurses? I am unfamiliar with a lot of their beliefs. I was watching Discovery health channel where a women had fallen off a chair and hit her head. she developed a large clot that needed surgery and her husband refused on the basis of blood products. It was hard for me to comprehend becasue the doctors said it was not a huge surgery and she would come out fine. but the husband didn't want it. Can someone please comment on this? if you have worked with a jehova witness nurse or are one? I am just curious.

Kris

unknown99, BSN, RN · Feb 8, 2005

I wouldn't refuse to care for any pt. I may not agree w/ them (heck, I don't agree w/ most conventional medical tx but I digress) but as a nurse my job is to care for the pt w/o passing judgement. That said, I am a Conscientious Objector of infant circumcision. When I'm in practice that's one procedure I will not assist. I will care for the pt. after the surgery but I will not help a doc perform cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting pt. I can understand someone being opposed to abortion (they obviously would not work in a PP clinic) but to refuse care to a woman who had complications from one...seems wrong to me. Kind of like me refusing care to a patient w/ CHF who ate McDonald's his whole life when I am a vegetarian, yk?

My feelings exactly!!! Well said CNM-to-be!!!!!!

allnurses Guide · Feb 8, 2005

I think that's her approach Marie. She has a job where that isn't going to happen, as our facility requires the precense of at least two RNs on the unit at all times. So she would never be in a situation where no one was available, unless by some freak of nature everyone was a JW, but that is unlikely.
That's the approach I take. I will not under any circumstance ever work in a unit where elective abortions are performed. So my morals/ethics/values in this respect aren't ever going to be tested.
Obviously as a nurse, my ethics/morals/values are challenged on a daily basis. I've yet to ever refuse to care for an individual because of my moral/ethical belief.......yet.
I was the charge nurse once where a nurse refused her one assigned patient "because I refuse to pariticpate in the starvation of a patient." (her tube feeding was d/c'd by the family). Rather than force her to conform to another set of values, I reassigned the patient.
While we have to be nonjudgemental and provide care to patients, we also have to be nonjudgemental and respect the beliefs of each other. If there's the opportunity to reassign an patient, why not?

This is the way we practice too.

steph

lmcnabbkv · Feb 8, 2005

When we had this discussion we were told ( not sure if this is something with our state or not) that we could refuse to participate in an abortion but that we could not refuse to care for that patient afterwards. Due to my religious belief i could never participate in such a procedure but i would not refuse to care for her after. I wonder what it is like for jehova witness nurses? I am unfamiliar with a lot of their beliefs. I was watching Discovery health channel where a women had fallen off a chair and hit her head. she developed a large clot that needed surgery and her husband refused on the basis of blood products. It was hard for me to comprehend becasue the doctors said it was not a huge surgery and she would come out fine. but the husband didn't want it. Can someone please comment on this? if you have worked with a jehova witness nurse or are one? I am just curious.
Kris

My Grandmother was a Jehova's Witness and I believe it has to do with the fact thats if they take another person's blood then they are not pure and when "armageddon" comes, they will not be resurrected. I think that's right, don't quote me on it. I just remember that my grandmother would not take blood and even the sight of someone else taking it would bother her. I would assume if that lady you speak of (on Discovery channel) was a child this would have been a case where someone would have had to step in for the childs protection rather than to let her die. Adults are free to choose their own religion and beliefs but I don't think it is right for a child to have such things imposed on them. (Just a thought?) It's similar to a friend I have who knew someone who broke their arm but her family was Christian Science and did not believe in going to the doctor.

chilloutrelax · Feb 8, 2005

Maybe it's a southern thing....but I have never heard such strong beliefs about abortion until I went to school in the south.

Anyway....I would do it absolutely. Would I want to assist in abortions as a nurse? No. Would I want to work in an OBGYN office that performed abortions???....I don't know. I know many think of abortions only being in a clinic, but there are many done in your obgyn office.

I don't understand why you wouldn't care for her if she had complications from it. Complications...would be hemorrage....maybe they feel that was life?? I don't know. I'm sure many have taken care of murderers, child molestors,etc... Do you take care of a gunshot victim who has just killed another man?? He's a murderer too(if you think of abortion as murder)

In one way I can see their point though. Maybe they would think of it as helping with murder, or helping with a murderous law. Maybe they feel they would be contributing to this practice of "murder".