Difference bet 2 yr and 4yr school - page 5

Beside time and money, what is the difference or benefits of a 4 year college for nursing or is there no difference. why... :clown:... Read More

  1. by   Gompers
    Quote from butterflybee
    I am the original poster. What I was wondering and have since been answered was jobwise what the difference was and how much of a difference it made. Also, I was wondering as far as classes, what the difference was. Obviously, the 4 yr would take more classes but I was wondering in what. I think this was a very informative thread that could help someone decide which path they would like to choose or if in the long run they would go back for the BSN. Thank all of you for sharing your thoughts. You guys are really great.
    Difference jobwise: Very little. Both are RNs and have the same opportunities and types of assignments. Some hospitals pay a dollar or two more per hour if you have your BSN as opposed to an ADN. Some hospitals only hire BSNs into ICU positions, but not always. BSNs will have more opportunity to raise up and become managers someday. But for a new grad, starting out on a floor - VERY little difference between BSN and ADN.

    Difference schoolwise: Very similar science and nursing classes. The ADN will be much more science-nursing focused. The BSN will have you taking almost exclusively nursing classes junior and senior year, with your freshman and sophomore year consisting of a liberal arts education, with all that history, philosophy, psychology, literature, etc. that comes with it. Yeah, some people hate it because "what does that have to do with nursing" but that's what a bachelor's degree is about - a very well-rounded education. And THAT's the biggest difference, to me, between a BSN and an ADN.
  2. by   mstigerlily
    I agree. I have a BA in Psychology and an ADN in Nursing. I am now completing my BSN online and I have noticed that we have WAY more papers at the bachelor's level. My community college is one of the finest in So. Cal, their nursing program has been around since the 50's and the NCLEX pass rate is near 100% every year. Still, the one or two papers we had each semester were a huge deal with little "prep seminars" on how to do them, detailed instructions on the APA format, lists of websites where we can find help, meetings with instructors to preview the paper before we turned it in, etc.

    In my BSN courses (and in the BA I earned beforehand), we do papers as a matter of course they are not a huge deal it is EXPECTED that we know how to do them and if not, will find the resources to do so. Community College is somewhere between high school and a 4 yr university. You will find instructors who still take attendance and count off points if you are absent. They make themselves very available to the student with office hours and e-mails. University professors may have grad students teaching their classes, grading papers, large lectures with hundreds of students and attendance is not something they worry about. Either you are there or you're not. You pass or not - it's your responsibility. I think this is one of the differences between a community college and a university. That is why many students flounder when they go away to a four year school but do well at home at a 2 yr school and transfer later. I personally think most kids fresh out of high school would be better served attending community college and transferring to a 4 year school.

    Anyway, this turned out to be more about education in general than it was about nursing. To add to the above, I think that a bachelor's degree gives you a well rounded education that you don't get in an associate's program. It adds a level of prestige to say you have a bachelor's degree. After all, in this state LVN stands for Licenced Vocational Nurse - what is a vocational school - that is for someone out of high school who wants to learn a trade - auto mechanics, computer repair, cosmetology, paralegal, medical/dental assistant, vet tech, welding, interior/fashion design - the list goes on and on. An ADN is a step up from a "vocation" in that it prepares you for a profession but you do not get the level of education you get at the bachelor's level. Yes, you may learn the technical skills of nursing as well as or even better than someone at a BSN level because you spend ALL your time doing nursing skills and very little time learning nursing theory, history of nursing, writing research papers, learning statistics and higher sciences with labs.

    I wish all nurses would have a bachelor's degree as the standard of practice, if not at entry level at a certain point in time. I think it is important to see nursing as a profession to be respected and as a career and not just a job or trade.



    Quote from icugirl33
    Well said.. When we are intimidated by something, we have a tendency to try to tear it down. The bottom line is, do what you feel is better for you but you don't have to put down what someone else has to make yourself feel better. Regardless of what any of us think, a BSN is a 4 year degree and a ADN is a 2 year applied science (technical) degree. An ADN is trained to be a technical nurse, which would explain the longer clinical hours. A BSN is trained to be more than a technical nurse. If any ADN have taken BSN courses, you know exactly what I mean.
  3. by   suzy253
    Quote from West_Coast_Ken
    Very well said, Gompers. And just what is "critical thinking" anyway? [rhetorical question, folks...no answer needed] What BSN class teaches this that we ADN folks aren't taking? (answer: nothing).


    One thing I have learned over the years, especially when I earned my BA, is that many who have "higher" education think they are automatically smarter/better than those with a "lower" education. Same thing goes for just about any aspect of human nature.

    What makes a better RN isn't the training that got them the RN title, it's the person that makes a good (or not so good) RN--period.

    Regards,

    Ken
    Well said Ken. This is the continuous problem both on this board when discussing ADN vs BSN (and horrors: the original 3-year diploma programs) which are few and far between now but great educational experience. It always comes down to is who is better/smarter and the answer is none of them.

    Absolutely, it is the person that makes the RN--not the education or training that earned them the RN title. I have absolutely nothing against continuing education; my problem is the bashing that takes place: BSN vs ADN vs diploma. I usually don't take part in the discussion as it's like beating a dead horse over and over again but feel the need to defend my diploma education.
  4. by   Euskadi1946
    Daytonite, ADN, BSN, we all take the same NCLEX and unless you work for the US Government, state, or county facilities, a BSN makes the difference in money. It is the certifications in specialties that spell the big bucks if that is what nursing students are after. I graduated from an excellent ADN Program that has an excellent reputation for 100% passage on NCLEX and the two years I spent as a nursing student there were two of the hardest years I have ever spent in any school. However I was bound and determined to get my RN and passed NCLEX on the first try. I have worked with excellent nurses from both ADN and BSN Programs and I have worked with lousy nurses from both programs. To me, nursing school is what you make of it regardless of which program you choose to go through and if someone wants to further their education, more power to them. Life is an education and the more we learn the better. Maybe the BSN is more educated in the liberal arts than the ADN but to say that makes the BSN a more superior nurse is just plain, downright WRONG!!!!
  5. by   West_Coast_Ken
    Quote from mstigerlily
    I have a BA in Psychology and an ADN in Nursing. I am now completing my BSN online
    Hi Ms,

    I'm pretty much in the same situation...prior BA working on my ADN in California (program is closer to my home, quicker route to the RN than a BSN ar this point for me).

    Just wondering why you chose to do the BSN online rather than go for an MSN online since you already have a bachelor? I am considering the MSN myself once I get a few years of RN experience.

    Regards,

    Ken
  6. by   mstigerlily
    I don't have the time to attend school as I work full time. Online learning can be done at your own pace which is easier and works with my schedule, I can do it during off hours when kids are asleep, etc.

    Melissa


    Quote from West_Coast_Ken
    Hi Ms,

    I'm pretty much in the same situation...prior BA working on my ADN in California (program is closer to my home, quicker route to the RN than a BSN ar this point for me).

    Just wondering why you chose to do the BSN online rather than go for an MSN online since you already have a bachelor? I am considering the MSN myself once I get a few years of RN experience.

    Regards,

    Ken
  7. by   Katydidit34
    "An ADN is a step up from a "vocation" in that it prepares you for a profession but you do not get the level of education you get at the bachelor's level. Yes, you may learn the technical skills of nursing as well as or even better than someone at a BSN level because you spend ALL your time doing nursing skills and very little time learning nursing theory, history of nursing, writing research papers, learning statistics and higher sciences with labs."

    Normally I don't weigh in on these 2 yr vs. 4 yr degree discussions but I am choking on the arrogance of the superior BSN's are better posts. Programs vary from college to college and state to state. In my state, the only thing standing between a BSN and ADN is one year of Government, History and a semester of Statistics. I'm not quite sure how Government and History are relevant to nursing but I'm sure a BSN prepared nurse can answer that question. Quite frankly, who's to say who gets the better education? Instructors at the CC has fewer students per class and is able to provide more indiviualized attention to their students. Hmm, more personalized attention for less money, that would make the choice to pursue an ADN fairly intelligent I would think. However, what is the point in insulting each other? A great nurse is a great nurse and a bad nurse is a bad nurse regardless of their education. Like someone posted earlier, all of the backbiting and "I'm more intelligent than you are" comments do not further the profession, it degrades it. I'm kinda thinking it makes all of us look very unitelligent.
  8. by   Gompers
    Quote from Katydidit34
    "An ADN is a step up from a "vocation" in that it prepares you for a profession but you do not get the level of education you get at the bachelor's level. Yes, you may learn the technical skills of nursing as well as or even better than someone at a BSN level because you spend ALL your time doing nursing skills and very little time learning nursing theory, history of nursing, writing research papers, learning statistics and higher sciences with labs."

    Normally I don't weigh in on these 2 yr vs. 4 yr degree discussions but I am choking on the arrogance of the superior BSN's are better posts. Programs vary from college to college and state to state. In my state, the only thing standing between a BSN and ADN is one year of Government, History and a semester of Statistics. I'm not quite sure how Government and History are relevant to nursing but I'm sure a BSN prepared nurse can answer that question. Quite frankly, who's to say who gets the better education? Instructors at the CC has fewer students per class and is able to provide more indiviualized attention to their students. Hmm, more personalized attention for less money, that would make the choice to pursue an ADN fairly intelligent I would think. However, what is the point in insulting each other? A great nurse is a great nurse and a bad nurse is a bad nurse regardless of their education. Like someone posted earlier, all of the backbiting and "I'm more intelligent than you are" comments do not further the profession, it degrades it. I'm kinda thinking it makes all of us look very unitelligent.
    Yes, I can answer that question. Government and history have NOTHING to do with nursing. That is the difference between a BSN and an ADN. The ADN education focuses only on nursing. A bachelor's degree is a more rounded one, with education in things NOT related to the student's major. The post you quoted plainly states that an ADN program is just as good, if not better, than a BSN program as far as technical nursing education goes. Not all of us are saying that a BSN is better - just more well-rounded.

    I find it hard to believe that only one year of government, history, and statistics is the only difference. That's less than one year's worth of classes - and most BSN programs require at least 40 more credits to graduate than ADN programs. Maybe it's different with state schools. But I went to a private school, and believe me, I've compared the difference between my required courses and that of the community college ADN program. The nursing classes were all there - just different names - and most of the same science courses. But that's all their program was - nursing and science. I had to take TWO YEARS of non-nursing classes. TWO YEARS. English, literature, history, computer science, psychology, philosophy, theology, theater, statistics...

    I don't feel like I'm bashing the ADN at all. I'm just saying that while the nursing education is pretty much the same, it's the "other stuff" that makes a BSN more well-rounded. It's a FACT. BSNs don't go through school complaining that they have to take non-nursing classes because they KNOW that is what a Bachelor's degree entails. If you have no interest in that stuff, then go for an Associate's. But it wasn't very hard doing all those classes, and I cannot begin to tell you how much I learned those first two years in school. It was wonderful!
  9. by   West_Coast_Ken
    Quote from gompers
    i had to take two years of non-nursing classes. two years. english, literature, history, computer science, psychology, philosophy, theology, theater, statistics...
    i'd like to see a "two year" adn program, if one really exists. in california one is hard pressed to earn an adn in three years and that is if you can get all your classes and not have to wait due to classes being full. the "two years" is once you get into a program out here.

    i have a prior ba and i "only" had to take 7 classes to get into our "two year" adn program (4 science classes & 3 non-science classes). those classes alone were two full semesters (i.e. one college year). once in the adn program it is 4 semesters, fill-time. no evening courses and no summer nursing classes.

    so in addition to the two years of nursing classes one needs:

    anatomy, physiology, chemistry, microbiology, psychology, english composition, public speaking, us government, racial/ethnic relations, and nutrition.

    i agree my ba education taught me more about learning how to learn, but please don't call the adn degree a "two year degree." at least not here in california.

    many of the people who choose the adn route do so not because it is "easier" but because it is available. the closest bsn program is a lot further away than the adn which isn't exactly close either.

    regards,

    [font='times new roman']ken
  10. by   DaFreak71
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    Oh i COMPLETELY agree with this line. People turn the thread into a ADN vs. BSN degree debate on which is better, smarter, etc., and the DON'T GET that the OP was just asking what the difference or benefit was between a 2 and 4 year degree.

    :stone
    I'm beginning to think that an intelligent discussion about the merits of the various degrees is near impossible so long as people read too much into innocent observations/comments. It seems that many are quick to point an accusatory finger at someone and proclaim "You are jealous of BSN if you only have ADN". The original poster (like many students, etc) are curious about the differences if any between the ADN and BSN education.

    To assert that an ADN cannot even correctly evaluate a BSN education is absurd, as are the accusations that you aren't well rounded without a BSN. This topic seems too controversial for some on this board (and in the industry) to maturely discuss. That is just plain sad.

    For the record, there are regional differences and attitudes about the ADN vs BSN topic. One should not be told they are jealous or vague because they point out that in their particular corner of the world, there are differences in estimation regarding BSN vs. ADN.

    If you can't ask a group of nurses about their various degree paths, who can you ask?

    Sheesh!

    Adri:uhoh21:
  11. by   Gompers
    Quote from lostdruid
    To assert that an ADN cannot even correctly evaluate a BSN education is absurd, as are the accusations that you aren't well rounded without a BSN. This topic seems too controversial for some on this board (and in the industry) to maturely discuss. That is just plain sad.
    I don't think this is an immature discussion. If you want to see one of those, please do a search on BSN vs. ADN and you'll find hundreds of posts.

    What is wrong with saying the BSN education is more well-rounded than an ADN one? It's TRUE. I'm not talking about being a well-rounded PERSON, because that is individual. I'm talking about actual formal education. Someone with a Bachelor's degree DOES have a more well-rounded education than someone WITHOUT an Bachelor's. Yes, someone without even a high school diploma could have read a thousand books and be very well-educated. But there is nothing wrong with saying that a Bachelor's (in ANY subject) is a well-rounded degree as compared to an Associate's (in ANY subject). I don't see what is immature or absurd about saying that. I really don't. I'm not bashing Associate's degrees - they are very good, but focus mainly on the actual major. There is nothing wrong with saying that. I'm not saying a Bachelor's is better, I'm just saying there are lots of classes that have nothing to do with the major course of study, and that is what sets a Bachelor's degree apart. It's a liberal arts education combined with an intensive focus on a particular subject.

    I don't understand how this is being offensive.
  12. by   danu3
    As for California, I actually am applying to both an ADN and a BSN program locally. I will go to which ever accept me first. The differences in terms of actually class requirements for these two programs are (I have a 2nd bach already so my requirements are a little bit different):

    * For lower division prereqs, I had to take statistics, inorganic chem, and organic chem for the BSN program. I almost decided agaist the BSN program because of the chem requriement.

    * For upper division prereqs - ADN obviously do not have this. In my case, they will not wave it even though I have a second bach. So I am taking the following for the BSN:

    - Death, Dying, and Religion (nursing applicable as we will deal with death)

    - Magic, Science, and Religion (dealing with how humanity try to control our surroundings; nursing applicable when dealing issues of control, death, health)

    - Nutrition and Physical Fitness (upper division class; not the lower level nutrition prereq; good for nursing since it plays into part of patient teaching sometimes)

    - Aging and society (nursing applicable especially if one has an interest in the gero population)

    - Health Science research (nursing applicable because a nurse really needs to know how to evaluate research, especailly if a patient start bringing in papers saying such a such treatment works and ask you for your opinion; also important in dealing with alternative type of meds as one needs to know how to evaluate the results

    As for the actual nursing school program, as far as I can see, one of the big difference is that the BSN program goes into public health nursing (ADN just do not have the time to do it) and school nursing. Also it depends on your selection, you can actually get up to a full year of psych realted nursing if that is an area you are interested in (ADN only has the standard psych rotation).

    There are other differences, but those are the ones that stood out in my mind when I was looking into both programs.

    As far as the pass rate for the board exam, the ADN program I am looking at actually has a higher pass rate than the BSN program that I am looking at.

    The thing is this in my view... get as much education as you can when opportunities come. All of us have different limitations in terms of resources (time, energy, financial, ... etc) and that will affect which programs we will go with. If you are lucky enough to have the opportunity to get a Ph.D. in nursing, go for it.

    Last thought... if I were a patient... I really don't care if my RN is a ADN, BSN, or a diploma graduate. All I care is that my RN is a compassionated and competent RN, one who will advocate for me and my family.

    -Dan
  13. by   grannynurse FNP student
    In response to the query of a true two year program, yes there is one. I attended it, from 1969 to 1971. And it is still a two year program. We had no pre-requisites, rather co-requisites. These course were taken along with out nursing courses. It was and is a full time program. It currently has an evening program but it is mainly for LPNs.

    Grannynurse

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