Will you work during a Pandemic?

night_owl_504 · May 1, 2009

First of all, I seriously doubt that the govt. and/or the hospital would not provide the necessary PPE. What if all nurses had the same attitude as all those who said no... what if your loved one or kid was terribly sick from this pandemic... who would care for them if we all said no??? Before you say that you would care for them yourself, lets assume that you wasn't a nurse. I am married and have kids, and my parents are still living, but they all know that what my occupation entails.

Lets take Hurricane Katrina for instance (this is not a sob story), I along with many others stayed back through a terrible storm with NO RESOURCES. How about bagging a patient that should be on a ventilator for hours, because there is no power... Each and every hurricane season myself and plenty of others who rode out that hurricane still sign up for activation team. Once again im not asking for pity, or reward, but who would care for those less fortunate if we all had the same attitude as those who said NO?

I am simply saying I knew before going into this field that I am a first responder, and I think it is shocking and disappointing at the number of NO's in the poll. That is just my opinion, and im not trying to offend anyone.

Definition's of First responder borrowed from Wikipedia:

First responder is a term used to describe the first medically-trained responder to arrive on scene of an emergency, accident, natural or human ...

Local police, fire, and emergency medical personnel who arrive first on the scene of an incident and take action to save lives, protect property ...

rockenmomRN · May 1, 2009

Okay, so what some of you are saying is that b/c we decided to put ourselves through 3-4 years of specialized training its now our DUTY to work in a dangerous environment. Remember the scenario is no PPE. I don't even touch a patient now w/out gloves b/c i dont want to bring anything home to my kids.

Last night my supervisor suggested i use some vacaton time if this thing gets out of control in order to not expose my 6y asthmatic to the virus.

For the poster who asked "why did you go into healthcare?" 4 reasons, my mom, both grandmothers, and one great grandmother were all nurses. And you know what these women with the combined experience of over 200 years of nursing told me? "Love your job and be good at it, but you are no martyr; your family always comes first"

Fact is, my facility is ready with stockpiles of PPE, so I will be at work. I will in NO WAY begrudge anyone who isn't there. Its their constitutionally protected right to not be there.

sanctuary, BSN, MSN, RN · May 2, 2009

Those of us who have known that there will be a pandemic of some sort in our lifetime are already prepped for this or the next one. I'll work. My kids are grown, I've got a month's supplies or more ready, and that includes PPE. Masks and gloves are for sale on line, as well as drug stores. This pandemic should not come as a surprise to anybody in the medical field. If it not H1N1, it will be another.

Equinox_93 · May 3, 2009

... If someone signed up to be an EMT or other first responder- then yes- they should have thought of this long before they got into that role. However, not all medical professionals are first responders.

Right now, with small children of my own at home- I would be saying no. After my children are grown and on their own- that answer may well change. I think it's reasonable, expected and *right* that people who have a primary responsibility to their own young would forgo undue risk because their children are and should be their first and primary responsibility. However, children don't stay young forever- so that's less a "no" and more of a "not right now".

First of all, I seriously doubt that the govt. and/or the hospital would not provide the necessary PPE. What if all nurses had the same attitude as all those who said no... what if your loved one or kid was terribly sick from this pandemic... who would care for them if we all said no??? Before you say that you would care for them yourself, lets assume that you wasn't a nurse. I am married and have kids, and my parents are still living, but they all know that what my occupation entails.
Lets take Hurricane Katrina for instance (this is not a sob story), I along with many others stayed back through a terrible storm with NO RESOURCES. How about bagging a patient that should be on a ventilator for hours, because there is no power... Each and every hurricane season myself and plenty of others who rode out that hurricane still sign up for activation team. Once again im not asking for pity, or reward, but who would care for those less fortunate if we all had the same attitude as those who said NO?
I am simply saying I knew before going into this field that I am a first responder, and I think it is shocking and disappointing at the number of NO's in the poll. That is just my opinion, and im not trying to offend anyone.
Definition's of First responder borrowed from Wikipedia:
First responder is a term used to describe the first medically-trained responder to arrive on scene of an emergency, accident, natural or human ...
Local police, fire, and emergency medical personnel who arrive first on the scene of an incident and take action to save lives, protect property ...

lamazeteacher · May 3, 2009

".......... I don't even touch a patient now w/out gloves b/c i dont want to bring anything home to my kids."
Having been recently hospitalized, let me tell you that as a nurse, the scariest thing I experienced (along with not getting the meds I routinely take) was a young, intelligent looking R.N. (on her ID tag) who walked into my room one morning, with gloves already on. I asked her if she had her gloves on with another patient, and her reply (somewhat defensively) was, "I never touch any patient without my gloves on, to protect them". I identified myself as a former Infection Control Nurse who introduced universal/standard precautions at the onset of their implementation. She kept them on as she checked my IVs, took my temperature, and touched many things in my room.
The swine flu was starting to make inroads in many states at that time, and I explained that if any other patient she attended had that virus, which is infectious, yet unsymptomatic 24 hours before any symptoms appear, wearing the same gloves for both of us would transfer the virus bewteen us. She tersely remarked: :argue:"well, she doesn't have it. She's a retired nurse, too". I realized the futility of further education by me. After all, I was flat on my back, and she was healthy and standing and many years younger than I am. Just the different postures were enough to block communication. :smiley_ab
So when the Nurse Manager came in to visit, I reported the deficit in understanding of the role of gloves, my nurse has (yes, I snitched, but I meant it to clear that up, and spare other patients from cross contamination).
The NM said the IC nurse was coming to the floor and she'd send her in to talk to me. I replied that the IC nurse's time would be better spent observing that nurse, and correcting her misconception about the use and role of gloves...... :smackingf
The next morning, when the same young nurse walked into my room with gloves on, I asked, "what purpose have the gloves today?" To my mortification and horror, she replied, "I'm removing your IV". I asked, "and will you remove them after you do that, and wash your hands?". I just got a nasty look, and she wore the gloves out of my room, leaving the dirty needle and tubing in the sink. OK, I'd brought out knee jerk obstinacy in a nurse who hadn't applied theory to practise, yet.
I'm posting this as a plea to all of you, that you make the difference when/if you see a colleague doing something that goes against principles you've been taught. Do it in a friendly, concerned way, blame her earliuer instructors, and it's likely that you'll not be put down or shunned by her (and possibly her friends). Remember, the patient comes first, always. :nmbrn:
Hopoefully this post stayed more on topic than it wandered off of it......

MAISY, RN-ER, BSN, RN · May 4, 2009

Sorry...the first responder thing is out in left field....many are volunteers and any action on their part is a gift not a requirement. Secondly, anyone who would sacrifice themselves on the alter of martyrdom in MHO should be considered suspect and perhaps needs to be protected because obviously they are in no position to protect themselves from harm. They are not thinking clearly....lack of planning and PPE=illness and death to those who provide care.

Like all things in life I believe most people are good, BUT AGAIN I have to state that my experiences in the ER have proven to be telling.....Americans feel entitled and I truly believe they will not only panic, but raze hospital ERs and we will have to call in security(government or local) to protect ourselves from them and to protect whatever patients we have. Let's face it no on is as important as them!

As for the glove thing, depending on where I am working in the ER....occasionally I will wash my hands and glove prior to making contact with patients. This is especially true of anyone in any type of residency....until you've had scabies, seen other living critters along with the long unwashed with oozing sites.....gloving is my standard. Other times if I know my purpose is to handle bodily fluids or remove an IV, I may wash and glove prior to entering. Just because the nurse was gloved didn't mean they were used or dirty. It isn't uncommon to perform a function and then to touch "dirty" areas prior to ungloving.

No offense lamazeteacher, but do you think you may have been condescending in tone when explaining your history of "your inception" from the beginning of universal protocols? I kind of felt that in your post, and honestly I am not surprised the "RN" followed up the next day in the same manner. Your impromptu tattling session probably had the same effect of complaining to a restaurant manager...spit in the food. While I agree if she was wearing gloves to perform task after task that is equal to unwashed hands and is the epitome of poor practice, you couldn't know one way or the other. I personally don't think it is about customer service, while our administrations are woefully misguided about customer service...the customer is not always right!

You were within your rights to ask for a handwashing, and I never have a problem telling patients when they complain about whomever that they have every right to expect it! However, I think you were wrong approaching her manager. Of course that's just my opinion, occasionally ours clash. Like it or not, hospitals and their administrations dictate the time spent with patients and the quality that comes out of it-don't blame the nurses, blame the system and the education. We are taught a myth, because no one is able to give the care that is projected during classes and in theory. That is unless you are a student, educator, or someone who can work on their own schedule and with no assignment. It seems these are always the ones with the "ideas" that us poor front-line movers cannot adapt to, according to those without assignments it's because we can't change, to us it's because those who make them up live "in a dream".

M

CountyRat · May 4, 2009

I would work. I have a wife and four children, and they have long understood my belief that nurses have a duty to respond to communitty-wide disasters. However, I would insist on having appropriate PPE (you can buy N95 masks at hardware stores!) and would take whatever measures I could to protect myself.

As for those colleagues who see this issue differently, you have my complete respect and support. No one has the authority (not legitimately, anyway) to order you to offer your life for another. That is a personal decission, and I respect those of you who have come to different conclusions than I. We see things differently, but that does not make me right, and it certainly does not make you wrong.

Purple_Scrubs, BSN, RN · May 7, 2009

Sorry if i seem harsh, but... I cant believe that there are so many nurses here saying that they wouldn't work or undecided!! Thats comparable to a firefighter or police officer saying "nah... I don't think I will put that fire out today, or go into that house with the criminal". I think if you said no, then you need to reevaluate why you are in the medical field! If you are not willing then, why did you become a nurse???

The given scenerio involved a shortage of PPE. Show me a cop who will walk into a gun fight without a gun and vest, or a fire fighter who will try to stop a fire without a hose and suit. Let's compare apples to apples and stop critizing nurses who refuse to be martyrs.

GrumpyRN63, ADN, RN · May 7, 2009

Gee, I thought I was already working in the middle of a "pandemic" :smackingf :confused: , what I'd really like to see is the WHO track and every media outlet update us 5 times a day next year during the annual flu season when 800 people are dying each week, I'd love to see the public react/panic, schools and businesses shut down due to mass hysteria :eek: over what occurs normally on an annual basis. :uhoh3: I guess be it an 'endemic' or 'pandemic' I will go to work next flu season. If we ever have a true pandemic where thousands of people are dropping like flies, no I won't work. :nono:

lamazeteacher · May 8, 2009

"Sorry...the first responder thing is out in left field....many are volunteers and any action on their part is a gift not a requirement. Secondly, anyone who would sacrifice themselves on the alter of martyrdom in MHO should be considered suspect and perhaps needs to be protected because obviously they are in no position to protect themselves from harm. They are not thinking clearly....lack of planning and PPE=illness and death to those who provide care. "
I stopped when I saw a van upside down at the side of the freeway, and another car stopped too. As I made my way over to the vehicle with its wheels in the air, I noticed a man on the ground in front of it. He was on his back with pools of blood covering his eyes. He was breathing and had a strong pulse, but his head was twisted slightly.
The other driver came near and I told him I am a nurse. He identified himself as an off duty police officer and asked, in that surreal setting, if I needed a helicopter. He said he'd called 911 on his cellphone, already. I said the helicopter was needed, and then irrationally wondered if I'd have to pay for it, if it turned out it wasn't required. I squatted near the man on the ground and told him soothingly that he'd be taken to a hospital by helicopter and he should keep his eyes closed as the sun was bright, and he needed his face cleaned. I didn't need PPE for anything I did, and I didn't plan to do anything short of CPR until the EMS personnel arrived. However I could be reassuring. I did have a mask with a one-way valve in the pocket of my car door, and gloves in the trunk, in my HH bag.
"Other times if I know my purpose is to handle bodily fluids or remove an IV, I may wash and glove prior to entering. Just because the nurse was gloved didn't mean they were used or dirty. It isn't uncommon to perform a function and then to touch "dirty" areas prior to ungloving. "
If the function you provided involved body fluids and then you touched another area before removing your gloves and washing your hands, you weren't following accepted technique. I highlighted the word "may" as that isn't an option. When proper technique is followed unerringly from the day you learn it, it becomes "second nature" and takes next to no time, unless you think about what you're doing, and whether you really need to take the precautions you were taught!
We're diverging from the thread's topic here, so I'll make the other comments I have, to you privately.

mama_d, BSN, RN · May 10, 2009

from tweety pages and pages ago:

i'd make a mask out of a pillow case or sheet and live dangerously and show up and work. if it's that desparate, i'll show up. i have no kids or family to worry about, am in great health with no pre-existing problems, and i wouldn't be able to sleep at night if i didn't find a way to help.

this is assuming proper ppe, given the fact that the situation has changed somewhat since the original poll was posted...

i have kidlets to worry about, but i'd be there. and i think that they'd expect it, too. i do have a son with asthma, so i'd expect that he'd be on the short list for the vaccine...i'd wrangle one out of his pediatrician (she moonlights at the er at my hospital as well as taking care of kiddos, so she'd have a personally vested interest in seeing that we were staffed). my kids (all but the toddler) know that i take care of people who are too sick to be at home and need specialized care...what would i be teaching them about responsibility and duty to others if i shirked mine?

i recognize that there are those who, for valid reasons, would be neglecting greater responibilties and duties if they did join us in the trenches. i am lucky enough that i have a perfectly competent husband who is at the moment a stay-at-home dad and has had plenty of experience dealing with acutely ill kids without me home, even if i do get numerous phone calls throughout the night when that's the case.

i don't have a martyr complex or anything like that (okay, my husband thinks i do, but i beg to differ). :)

it's just that if we're not there to take care of these folks, who will? the better we're staffed, the more time we'll have to ensure proper infection control procedures, and the faster we'll be able to get those people well and back on their feet.

and from multicollinerarity:

yesterday in clinical one of my classmates said that if a big pandemic hits, nurses without children should work 7 days a week to staff the hospitals, and nurses with children should be excused from working.

this person is a jack!ss. if it does come to the point where i'm taking care of h1n1 patients, though, i'd start changing all my clothes and shoes at work before i come home though.

i can darn well guarantee you that if the situation continues to develop, and if myself or my family gets symptoms, i will expect to be able to take them to a doctor's office which is staffed. just like the general public should be able to expect to take their loved ones to a staffed hospital if needed, regardless of what brought them there.

we have confirmed cases of h1n1 at my facility, all staff exposed to those patients are on prophylactic tamiflu. hopefully even if the whole darn staff has to be on it eventually, that will still be the protocol. and our id nurse was really on the ball about e-mailing all staff at work to let us know that we had that first confirmed case and letting us know what the precautions etc. should be.

HippyGreenPeaceChick · May 11, 2009

For some of us, we would rather not die, b/c we don't want to see our kids grow up in foster care. If not for that, then yes, I would work IF there were proper PPE. If no PPE? Then no way.

Interesting statement. In all truth you do not get exposed anymore at work than you do at the grocery store or mall. Are you going to stop shopping all together. Maybe stay in safety in your sanitized home and order all your needs to be shipped in to you. I will stick to rest , fluids and good eating habits and vitamins. Much easier. You can say I told you so if I get sick. Peace.

Will you work during a Pandemic?

Nurses, would you go to work during a Pandemic?