Why is education not valued within our profession?

nurs4kids · Nov 13, 2001

Suz,

I absolutely agree that one should be compensated for the higher degree. I even think the pathetic fifty-cents or one dollar difference that SOME employers offer is not enough compensation for the two extra years of sacrifice. I'll even give you the notion that two more years would enhance my nursing abilities. My problem comes with the attitude that ADN's lack the nursing knowledge of BSN's (in general) and that ADN/diploma nurses are the root of the public's view on nursing.

As I've said before, I could kick my own butt for not getting my BSN, so I'm not defending anyone from "stepping on my toes". I've done that myself. I just don't feel the "better than thou" attitudes that many BSN's direct towards ADN/diploma nurses are warranted. Just as many say about the LPN vs RN debate, I work with a mix of ADN and BSN nurses. My hospital pays no differential (until this past week, I thought they paid a .50 diff, but I was misled), and perhaps that is why I see no difference in the capabilities of the two levels. Maybe the cream of the BSN crop goes elsewhere? I'm a big advocate for education. I feel the greatest investment in life, short of children, is education.

Just don't try to tell me a BSN education was more productive than mine when you "didn't walk my mile". Quantity education does not necessarily mean > quality.

RNforLongTime · Nov 13, 2001

I can speak for myself, when I say that I have never ever made anyone feel inferior to me simply because I have a BSN and they do not. On my unit, most of the RN's that I work with are ADN prepared. I am one of the few RN's with a BSN.

If I came across as sounding superior in my above post--that was not the intention at all. I just chose to go for the BSN.

Kelly

pama · Nov 13, 2001

I believe Brandi has way too much time on her hands. If she is still in school, how does she have time to post so many messages? When I was in school, many years ago, my days, evenings, and nights were spent with studying, care plans, patient care assignments, assessments, communication assessments, exams, etc.

It is great when students, especially young ones, can begin at a university and complete a BSN degree. Is this reality? Not on your life! How many excellent nurses would not have been able to go to school if not for the ADN programs?

I am a first generation college graduate, from an extremely economically disadvantaged part of the country. I went to the local community college right out of high school. Without my ADN degree I would never be where I am today.

Currently, I have an advanced degree, an administrative position, and a wonderful career. However, without the ADN DEGREE I would NEVER be where I am today.

Brandi, not everyone is as fortunate as you. Many people have circumstances that preclude them from going the BSN route. Are they inferior? No! Do they devalue education? No.

Values. Is your BSN program not teaching you to resept other peoples choices and values? I believe your faculty have failed you in this arena. Nurses, and nursing students, should be taught to respect and understand everyone's choices and values.

Brandi, let's look at this post in 10 years after you have some time in the profession. I would wager you will have a different frame of mind.

Good luck in school!

KRVRN, BSN, RN · Nov 13, 2001

Now I found the "Brandy has way too much time on her hands" comment rude. Be nice.

thisnurse · Nov 13, 2001

why on earth would you say she has too much time on her hands?

seems to me that brandi is all encompassed in her career and i dont see anything wrong with her using her spare time like this. just like we do.

i think it shows dedication, commitment, and a desire to learn. i think she is going to make a great nurse.

i understand how she feels tho i dont agree with some aspects of the argument. i dont think its the nurses who devalue education...its administration. why? because they can.

this debate has been ongoing for years. we cant seem to get together to address the basic issues we all face so i doubt we will be able to change the entry level any time soon.

as it is now the hospitals dont care one way or another what kind of degree you have. and i cant see them wanting to change that.

if i were brandi id be pissed that they are going to pay me the same or 50 cents more than someone who has less education.

im not taking experience into consideration here because thats the REAL education. im talking only about two entry level nurses, BSN and ADN.

right now there are many hospitals that still have nursing schools. i cant see any of them wanting to close them and do away with the diploma nurses.

brandi has a valid opinion and it was presented in a valid way. i dont think anyone deserves to be shot at for their opinions. i agree...be nice.

psnurse · Nov 13, 2001

Nurs4kids,

Not trying to step on toes. Our feet have probably stomped on some of the same earth. Inspite of the whole "War Eagle" thing, I am sure you are an absolutely decent human being. "Roll Tide!!"

However, I don't think my comparison to engineers is that far off the mark. Engineers take direction from supervisors as well, in the form of project managers or department heads or whatever. The supervisor cares less about the methods employed to achieve the end than the finished product. Just as the physician cares less about nursing methods than the fact that the order was appropriately implemented. The engineer uses her vision to plan the means to achieve the end, just as the nurse plans how to appropriately implement physician orders in a individualized manner. The engineer delegates appropriate technical tasks to the technician, just as the nurse delegates appropriate technical tasks to the CNA. However, I do think nursing has retained more technical tasks than is necessary at times.

The engineer consults the project manager with problems as they arise, much as nurses consult physicians with problems as they arise.

The project manager must know enough about engineering and how to achieve the end product as the engineer and the technician. The engineer must know what is necessary for the technician to complete his technical task. The technician over time may pick up the abstract concepts that drive his technical tasks, but that still doesn't make him an engineer.

The question of if an ADN or BSN makes a better nurse is really moot. I have worked with people from each category that made me think "couldn't you call in sick everyday?" or "Thank God, it's you!" Basically nursing remains a task oriented, technical occupation.

A key defining feature of a profession is that it develop its own knowledge base. Nursing is in its infancy as a profession. The purpose of knowledge is not to say, "This is how it is", but rather to create the impetus for more knowledge.

There is a school of thought that nursing has no real knowledge base of its own. That all nursing is based on theory from other professions. Continuing formal education and engaging in academic activities (research) contributes to the existing knowledge base and the viability of the profession.

So I guess, having a BSN may not bring extra technical skill to the bedside. However, it is anything but a waste of time. MSN may take one away from the bedside, but this is not to the detriment of nursing. On the contrary, more education is intimately tied to the advancement of the profession. This advancement can only benefit nursing for all nurses.

As a side note, I didn't set out to obtain a BSN originally. I was looking into an ADN program. I already had a year of pre-req's in, and what I found was that either course of study would take me the same length of time. So I figured why not??

So to assume that I expect bowing and scraping when I walk in the unit would be incorrect. Nor would I say that BSN makes a better bedside nurse. The benefit is in what advanced education can do for the professional as a whole. No Teamsters required.

BrandyBSN · Nov 13, 2001

I am completely resisting the urge to post on the education debate, however, I will post about that comment that I have too much time on my hands.

What do you consider "too much time"?

First of all, I am excellent at time management. This talent may have developed while working 40+hours a week while attending high school so that I could save money for college so that I didnt have to ask my parents for anything. I continue to finance my education entirely on my own.

I don't piddle time with study breaks, talking on the phone, or gossiping. I am currently taking 18 hours this semester. I go to class, come home, and do the assigned reading or writing immediately, then I use the extra time as I wish. I am also an assigned mentor for 3 sophomores, and I tutor for A&P, Patho, and microbiology. I also have 2 freshman who I tutor for ethics and advanced creative writing. I complete sessions with each of these groups once a week, for 6 hours per group. In addition to that, I am also a computer technician, and I offer call support for many student and faculty members. I also attend an average of 20 hours a week in clinical time, between the ER/ICU and Public health. Actually, I just got home from clinicals an hour and 30 minutes ago, and before coming here I finished 4 care plans and read two chapters in my book for my management class. Last night I completed a 13 page term paper on McGregor's X&Y motivation theories WHILE keeping an eye on the bulletin board. "That" is called the ability to multi-task.

I read on average of 300 pages a week, between my 18 hours of class, and I complete 10-12 pages of writing a week for my writing intensive courses. If you doubt the amount of work required for my classes I would recommend that you look at the course decriptions on my university's website. However, with effective time management skills I have found that it is not necessary to eat-sleep-breathe nursing coursework, while many of my classmates can not use their time effectively, and thus have no personal time. I am also in the process of planning a wedding. I have a 3.3 GPA, so my style of time management IS effective.

Although I am sure you were not "concerned" that I was neglecting my studies, and that your comment was more out of spite, I thought I would let you know exactly how I have "time on my hands". "Prior proper planning prevents poor performance", were you never told this? Thank you for your attempts to "redirect" my time usage. However, I am managing just fine.

As I tell the students I tutor, procrastination on your part, does NOT constitute an emergency on mine. I am sorry you were unable to participate in leisure activities while you were in school. Maybe time management didnt appear to be an asset then?

Thanks

BrandyBSN

hoolahan, ASN, RN · Nov 13, 2001

OMG Brandy!! I am exhausted just reading your schedule. You are obviously one of those people, like a good friend of mine, who thrives under stress.

And is there a college debate team, cause girl, your reply ROCKED! That remark about too much time was just totally uncalled for, but it is CLEAR Brandy, that you need no one to argue on your defense!!! :D

Pama, please, I will give you the advice my grampa used to always give to me and my sister, "Fight nice."

**canoehead, BSN, RN** · Nov 13, 2001

Rock on Brandy

nurs4kids · Nov 14, 2001

LOL, Brandy..you rock, girl!!! You KNOW you didn't need to offer a defense, we KNOW you. However, you may force me, yet, to bow out and say your BSN HAS given you something my ADN didn't. An awesome ability to put your thoughts into words...WITHOUT profanity or direct attacks. The "Brandy has too much time.." comment was totally out of line.

Keep that head up high, Brandy AND by all means, keep managing your time wisely. Your contribution to this bb is superior!!

nurs4kids · Nov 14, 2001

Originally posted by kaknurse
I can speak for myself, when I say that I have never ever made anyone feel inferior to me simply because I have a BSN and they do not. On my unit, most of the RN's that I work with are ADN prepared. I am one of the few RN's with a BSN.

If I came across as sounding superior in my above post--that was not the intention at all. I just chose to go for the BSN.

Kelly

Kelly,

I wasn't speaking of you, or Suzy, or Brandy...or anyone in particular. Honestly, I've never been made to feel inferior to any BSN, or MD for that matter. Perhaps my words were poorly chosen. The BSN's I work with do not have that attitude either. Most of them are newer to the profession than me and often come to me for advice. The only thing I keep trying to say is that all BSN programs are not the same. All ADN programs are not the same. All diploma program's were not the same. I work with a variety of educational levels from a variety of schools. There ARE some BSN schools in this state that turn out pathetic nurses, as are there pathetic ADN schools. Diploma nurses can normally work circles around all of us because they have the most experience.

As much as people want to debate the NCLEX's validity in judging nursing capabilities, it is true (here anyway) that the better schools have a higher pass rate and the worse schools have a lower percentage pass. I went to the only ADN school that I WOULD attend in the area. I chose this school because of it's reputation for turning out quality nurses and it's 98% pass rate on the NCLEX. I was one of four white students in a class of 150(in the South), so believe me I wasn't looking for a school to socialize. With that school, not only did I learn nursing, but through the enviroment, I learned more about culture than any sociology class ever taught me. I quickly realized that I was treated much better by classmates than they would have been treated had the ratio's been reversed.

So, my whole point is that education IS necessary, and the more the better. BUT more education does NOT necessarily make you a better nurse. Life experiences, work experience AND education are all important. Attitude makes the nurse, education enhances the personality.

nurs4kids · Nov 14, 2001

PSNurse,

I'm sorry about your team;) not. I guess I have a hard time with your analogy for one simple reason. If education is so important for the purpose of respect, then why does the electronic technician WITH the same amount of education as me, come out of college making what I make after 6 years experience? My hubby graduates next month with a degree in electronics. Took him 18 months (admittedly he CLEP'd several classes and he's a brain and I'm an idiot), took me twice that time. He already has offers making the same as my base pay. I have six years experience with the same company. Don't get me wrong, I'm estatic that he'll be making as much or more, but I think that clearly shows that education is not our main problem. Our main problem is that we're female dominated (I'm NOT a feminist) and we have ALLOWED ourselves to be disrespected. I'm as guilty as the next nurse, but just imagine if we spent half the time bringing our issues to the public that we spend here arguing. Wouldn't that be much more productive?? Do you not think that if we stood up and said "we've had enough, this is how it's going to be...", that we'd get respect, we'd get what we deserve? I'm far from anti-education. I believe education is very necessary. Any nurse that's anti-education chose the wrong field because medicine is constantly changing, BUT I do not feel that is the root of our problem. We are the root of that problem.