What my DON said about getting rid of LPN's - page 3

She said, in 1985 she started as an LPN, and when she was in school, they were told they would Graduate without a job! That was 1985, she is now an RN. She said "LPN's are licensed by the state!!... Read More

  1. by   Future LPN Sheryl
    Originally posted by Jason-ACNP:
    <STRONG>Okay, look. I have not the time, the will, nor the desire to argue


    Yet, I find hilarious the number of LPNs who THINK they have what it takes to be an RN. Everyone wants to be considered a professional, BUT VERY FEW are willing to put forth the effort to reach that level. There are DISTINCT DIFFEERNCES in the education of an LPN vs. an ADN. And the BSN? The differences in education are incomparable. Okay, okay…..so you are better at making beds, inserting foleys, or other “technical” duties. So is a highly trained monkey. But can you think critically? Let me answer that for you….NO. 90% of LPNs don’t know the meaning of critical thinking, much less have the ability to apply it. I think that it is safe to say that 99.9% of LPNs CANNOT take a critical situation and apply knowledge learned from physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology etc. and apply it to that situation. It’s possible to memorize a ton of information, but NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT. That is precisely the reason why your scope of practice is limited, as well as why advanced practice nursing requires the BSN as a prerequisite.

    Yet, as always, nursing continues to seek the least common denominator – that which is easiest. What is the easiest and fastest way I can obtain my AND? That is no different than me stating, “How many classes can I skip in medical school? After all, I have eight years of full-time college education (and every prerequisite for medical school). I hold a BSN (4.0 G.P.A.) as well as a Masc. (3.95 G.P.A), in conjunction to years of VALUBLE experience. Don’t forget!!! I already have prescriptive privileges, and I’ve tutored many of your medical students over the past two years in physical assessment skills! That should count for something!!!!! Pu-leeeaassseeee. Do you think they give a damn? Of course not. It is called S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. Get it? One more time…
    S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. By all means…pursue an AND (or whatever) in the fast track, but please…PLEASE – don’t whine and moan because you aren’t deemed a professional.

    Furthermore, the longstanding conviction that the BSN should be the entry level into nursing will never be adhered to. Thus, I am an advocate of having LPNs join the ANA in a limited capacity. There clearly needs to be unity within this field. But make no mistake. While unity is imperative for nursing to progress, there is a reason for the hierarchy. All nurses ARE NOT the same.

    As always, this is not meant to be construed as insensitive or rude. However, the issue has apparently become cloudy, and the need for clarification is quite evident. I am done with this issue. Take care.
    </STRONG>

    Jason, all I can see is that I hope to God that I don't ever work with someone as narrow minded as you!!!

    Brownie, you said it all

  2. by   Chellyse66
    CanoeHead started a post on professionalism asking us to define or give examples.I am glad he asked you can find the thread here: http://allnurses.com/bb/cgi/ultimate...c&f=1&t=002602

    We should talk about it,what I said before was about giving respect to one another,when defining professionalism I found this from the Kansas Medical School:
    "Respect for others, including patients and their families and other professional colleagues is the essence of humanism, which is both central to professionalism, and fundamental to enhancing collegiality among medical professionals."
    Now Tim in that definition comparing someone to a trained monkey is way off base and disrespectful....So in essence you were unprofessional in your response.I think you should realize this mistake and the harm done,and apologize.Now that would be a step in the direction of dialogue.
    Along with being professionals we are all humans, so sometimes we get too personal in our own defense or passion.But to admit you have that is more important.I know I have even on this BB made some posts I later regretted,I hope this is not one of them....
  3. by   Q.
    Ok Jesus Christ people - do we REALLY want a repeat of the LPN/RN debate??????

    I really think that what Jason was trying to say, and I think it is fair to concur here, that the educational differences between RNs, LPNs and BSNs are vast. To argue that they are the same with the exception of a history course or two is not a fair statement, and typically is made by someone who hasn't been through the program to come to such a conclusion.

    I've always said that standards of nursing is what is needed to at least start to unite our profession. I don't see how raising the bar in any way can be negative - this equates to higher standards for our profession. This does not mean that the LPN is useless, the ADN is an idiot - all this means is that if you take this already skilled LPN, and the already educated ADN, and give them a 4 year college degree, it can only enhance them as a nurse and as a person who now has opened thier mind even further.

    I fail to see the downside to that.
  4. by   stick
    Originally posted by Susy K:
    <STRONG>Ok Jesus Christ people - do we REALLY want a repeat of the LPN/RN debate??????

    I really think that what Jason was trying to say, and I think it is fair to concur here, that the educational differences between RNs, LPNs and BSNs are vast. To argue that they are the same with the exception of a history course or two is not a fair statement, and typically is made by someone who hasn't been through the program to come to such a conclusion.

    I've always said that standards of nursing is what is needed to at least start to unite our profession. I don't see how raising the bar in any way can be negative - this equates to higher standards for our profession. This does not mean that the LPN is useless, the ADN is an idiot - all this means is that if you take this already skilled LPN, and the already educated ADN, and give them a 4 year college degree, it can only enhance them as a nurse and as a person who now has opened thier mind even further.

    I fail to see the downside to that.</STRONG>
    SusyK, he could have said it in a more professional manner. To compare an LPN's intellect to that of a trained monkey was VERY UNPROFESSIONAL! I think that is the problem with the post, not the educational differences. With all of his "higher knowledge" he could've got his point across much better if he had chosen more appropriate words.

  5. by   Q.
    Stick, thanks for your reply - but I think I am speaking accurately when I say that Jason wasn't comparing JUST LPNs to trained monkeys. I think that of ANY nursing psychomotor skill, performed by ANY level of a nurse. It doesn't take a genius to insert a cath, give a shot, change a bed.
  6. by   lpnandloveit1
    O.K. I'll jump in I love RNs I love LPNs when talk of "grandfathering" LPN first started years ago there was talk of revamping the entire nursing system . Exp. Lpn would become Rn Rn would would become PN (proffessional Nurse) and so on. this plan also included the closing of all Lpn schools. I believe at the time any nurse with less than a BSN would be an RN. NOW let me tell you Most LPNS at the time (EVEN now ) concidered this plan much the same as an Urban legened. Along the same line. An RN was found stealing narcotics at the hospital I worked at her school had "pinned wings" on their caps. the hospital told her to continue working she had to unpin her cap and sighn charthing with LPN afetr her name!!!! the implication was that RNS wouldn't steal drugs but LPNs....... Needless to say we "lost our minds" she was not allowed to do this as LPN is a Legal title and she had not passed our boards.(yes we take boards)
  7. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by Susy K:
    <STRONG>Stick, thanks for your reply - but I think I am speaking accurately when I say that Jason wasn't comparing JUST LPNs to trained monkeys. I think that of ANY nursing psychomotor skill, performed by ANY level of a nurse. It doesn't take a genius to insert a cath, give a shot, change a bed.</STRONG>

    No it doesn't Susk, and it doesn't take a genius to see that jason's post was insensitive, inaccurate, belittling, degrading, and downright ignorant..period! I don't care what his point was, he lost it, when he lowering his communication to trying to elevate his "superior" knowledge, and make wild generalizations for which he has NO basis! LPN can't think critically?? Is that your assumption also?? Please enlighten us all as to how, the above "RNs", were critcally thinking in the stories he related in one his own posts? How he belittle, and without an actually knowledge of the situation, except for second hand information, label all the CNAs in that story, on that unit, as lazy, and spoke of how "they" falsified vital signs! Tell me how fair, and accurate he was when he labeled the RN's incompetence as being overloaded, that a patient in the story was never check ALL nite!!! His words not mine! How a "seasoned" RN, titated a Dopamine drip to 22mcgs??? Where was this persons critically thinking?? I get sooooo tired of this whose better than who crap! If an LPN has made those statements, it would have been..."see how these LPNs disrespect us RNs!! Awwww why bother...it's an age old discussion, that will continue as long as there are those who feel the need to degrade others for their shortcomings! I pray that one day, the infestation, that infects some with degrees, will one day be inoculated with a little respect for themselves, and then for those they interacte with! Until then...no amount of RNs with BSNs, or MSN, or anything else will unite this field we call nursing. There will always be those, who will go a little further to prove how much better than are, than someone else!

    It has to start within the person, before they ever start their education! It has to be ingrain into their hearts, why they are in this "profession"! Not to elevate themselves, but to elevate others, with a little humility, and the ability to inspire others, not bashed them on the head, with who, and what they are!

    No post on here ever stated, that LPNs were better than RNs, but if you read the prior posts, there were concerning a long ago suppose to happen thing, that had nothing to do with LPNs thinking they were RNs, as if they was such a lofty goal to achieve, that it was beyond our ability to aspire to! It wasn't just his misconception about LPNs being equated with monkeys, but his entire response ..period!

    Brownie
  8. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by Susy K:
    <STRONG>Stick, thanks for your reply - but I think I am speaking accurately when I say that Jason wasn't comparing JUST LPNs to trained monkeys. I think that of ANY nursing psychomotor skill, performed by ANY level of a nurse. It doesn't take a genius to insert a cath, give a shot, change a bed.</STRONG>
    Neither does it take a genius to do anything that an BSN does either! An example is the BSN I watched write her assessment, without EVER taking her stetoscope out of her pocket. Must have obtained the information she charted, though assumption! And LPN don't just give shots, change beds, and insert cath!

    Brownie

  9. by   Jason-ACNP
    Wow... I've only enough time to briefly skim these posts, but there appears to be many "heart-felt" responses

    Anyway, I wanted apologize for an insensitive statement that I had written. I remembered today that I had thoughtlessly written "a trained monkey" could perform some of the skills that nurses". Although such a statement is clearly unfounded, I would like to point out that I did not mean to suggest that LPNs are analogous to "trained monkeys". That was an asinine comment on my part. I have always been the first to admit that the psychomotor skills of LPNs are stellar in comparison to myself. Don't worry. I'll read all of the responses later. I'm sure some good points were brought out.

    Again, my apologies for the comment
  10. by   stick
    Originally posted by Susy K:
    <STRONG>Stick, thanks for your reply - but I think I am speaking accurately when I say that Jason wasn't comparing JUST LPNs to trained monkeys. I think that of ANY nursing psychomotor skill, performed by ANY level of a nurse. It doesn't take a genius to insert a cath, give a shot, change a bed.</STRONG>
    I'm sorry Susy k, but I have to disagree. Jason WAS speaking of LPN's when he compared our intellect to trained monkeys. He spoke of LPN's lack of critical thinking skills, not an RN's. Like I said before, what he said was VERY unprofessional. I am not comparing my education to his or any other RN, as I am not as qualified as an RN, but I am more qualified than a monkey. I'm sorry, but he compared LPN's to trained monkeys, not anyone else.
  11. by   HotSpam
    Wow. This really trips me out.

    Appears some of you are debating.

    I would like to point out something. Debating a point is only effective when the participants are defined. One is usually anti- while the other is pro-. The topic up for debate needs to be clearly defined. Then points are raised and equal time is alotted each side. Statements made need to be based in fact and therefore, accepted by the opponent.

    There is more to consider but this is the basic layout for a real debate.

    What we have here is a free for all. It is infuriating because much of what is being said is off base, without support, and more emotional than intellectual.

    Let's just chill out and be nurses. We can sympathize with each other and be there for each other. We can help each other with advice, and comfort after a long shift. We can tell our funny stories, and laugh.

    There will always be opponents. We are all opponents. Abortion rights vs. murder, LPN vs RN, ADN vs. BSN, Nurse vs Doctor, administration vs staff, good vs bad, and me vs you. Some of us are smart as a whip. Some of us are compassionate. Some of us are burned out. Some of us are young and idealistic. We are all here though. We have all chosen to read these words, and write these words.

    I am as bad as anyone at becoming furious, and at provoking fury. Tonight though I am feeling good. Do you?

    HotSpam
  12. by   kjmta57
    Enough is enough lets all get along. I know I am a good nurse and it doesnt take someone else to tell me otherwise. We all need each other as nurses and I dont care how long anyone has been in school as I have said before it just means its something you have wanted to do for yourself hopefully not to make you think you are better than someone else.I know people that have spent a large portion of their lives in college and cant get a decent job.Its who you are as a person and what you bring to the job. SO LETS ALL GET ALONG!
  13. by   leesonlpn
    I'm confused. All this talk about grandfathers and trained monkeys. I thought this was a nursing site. I'm an LPN who could be grandfathered but I think the surgery would be expensive, and training monkeys should be left to the specialists. Nurses week should be holding each others hands, not slapping them away. We are all connected together in some way because we are nurses. The caring we provide for our patients is like an invisible bond between us. Kind of like superglue, which makes us tenacious on some subjects. Maybe that's what makes us such great nurses - our super sensitivity. leesonlpn is sending a hug out to each and every one of you. No strings attached, ('cept for a little glue)

close