US licensing exam to be given in foreign countries.

fergus51 · Aug 21, 2002

Oh them's fightin words! I LOVE my touque! I think the move in the future will be towards reciprocity between Canada and the US. We actually used to write the same exam until the late sixties. I know what you mean about not really being foreign though.

Vsummer1 · Aug 21, 2002

This is a quote from the article you referenced:

"Passing the licensing exam -- along with two English proficiency tests -- ensures that nurses are basically competent. But nurse Irin Camay of the Philippines acknowledges that when she arrived in the United States, she realized she had a lot to learn about the high-tech world of American hospitals."

OK -- so they are taking the same test as here, along with the English tests. I guess if it helps with the shortage and helps save lives...

The hospital here offers students in my program $2000 per semester for your last 2 years in school to cover books, tuition, unforms, fees etc. and you sign a promisory note that states you will work for the hospital a mimimum of 2 years upon graduation as an RN. After you finish your two years, the loan is considered paid in full. Students must maintain a 3.0 gpa to receive funds.

Personally, I didn't take them up on the offer as I didn't want to be forced to work somewhere for 2 years that I might not like.

Spazzy Nurse, RN · Aug 21, 2002

Hey Fergie---

To be honest, I kind of dig those touques. In fact, I have been looking for one for a couple of years for myself, but I am yet to find one that is cool enough for me. :cool:

latebloomer · Aug 21, 2002

I am trying to go to nursing school, but here in the Washington, DC area, there are no night classes. Unless your husband can support the family by himself or unless you live with your parents, how is one supposed to attend nursing school? Waitress, work in a grocery store? No thanks. Luckily I've got the possibility of working in the hospital. We'll see how that pans out, but I know several people who would like to become nurses, but cannot afford to leave their day jobs.

Why are there not nursing school programs at night? I don't think enough has been done to encourage nursing here in the states.

latebloomer · Aug 21, 2002

I am trying to go to nursing school, but here in the Washington, DC area, there are no night classes. Unless your husband can support the family by himself or unless you live with your parents, how is one supposed to attend nursing school? Waitress, work in a grocery store? No thanks. Luckily I've got the possibility of working in the hospital. We'll see how that pans out, but I know several people who would like to become nurses, but cannot afford to leave their day jobs.

Why are there not nursing school programs at night? I don't think enough has been done to encourage nursing here in the states.

Q. · Aug 21, 2002

Originally posted by Spazzy Nurse
I had a hell of a time going to school because of the cost..... I am white and my parents were married, so I didn't get a single penny as far as grant money, and the money I could take out as a loan was even very limited...... money that I would be having to pay back (WITH INTEREST) anyway....
. ...I was standing behind her, trying to calculate to the last cent how much I had left on my credit card so I could buy more books, and I almost attacked the chick. Here I was in my own country and barely being able to go to school, and then someone from another country comes in and gets free tuition, free books, free medical insurance, etc. etc. etc. I definitely formed a real attitude during my school days (can ya tell? ).

I think rather than spending all of the money to bring foreign nurses in, we need to promote and support the quest for new nurses here IN OUR OWN COUNTRY.

I hear ya, girl.

Q. · Aug 21, 2002

Originally posted by latebloomer
I am trying to go to nursing school, but here in the Washington, DC area, there are no night classes. Unless your husband can support the family by himself or unless you live with your parents, how is one supposed to attend nursing school? Waitress, work in a grocery store? No thanks. Luckily I've got the possibility of working in the hospital. We'll see how that pans out, but I know several people who would like to become nurses, but cannot afford to leave their day jobs.

Why are there not nursing school programs at night? I don't think enough has been done to encourage nursing here in the states.

I hear your frustration, but I don't think making school more accessible is the answer, either. Most new grads leave the field in 2 years anyway, so by focusing on getting more people into nursing schools will only accentuate the problem, in my opinion.

We need to focus on the nurses who are here, educated, experienced and NOT WORKING. And the new grads, who leave in 2 years. WHY? WHY? WHY? THAT is the crux of the nursing shortage, NOT enrollment.

sjoe · Aug 21, 2002

Since no one else has yet pointed this out:

Did you know that when a company/facility/hospital/whatever sponsors an immigrant to come here to work (it is called an "H-1B visa"), it is only for THAT PARTICULAR COMPANY. If they are fired (for any reason, including sticking up for themselves) or quit (for any reason), they lose their visas along with their jobs and have to leave the country? The software industry has been doing this for years in Silicon Valley and elsewhere (you remember their pressuring Washington to increase the numbers of people they can bring in under this provision during the past presidential election?). It is simply a modern day version of indentured servitude and certainly discourages any of these people from "crossing" their employers in any way.

Fergus51: Have you noticed that all the ads for travel nurses to Saudi Arabia are for certain specialties, such as ICU, OR, etc. I have yet to see one for staff nurses. And, over the past 10 years I have noticed FAR fewer of these ads. It seems that they are now training enough of their own specialty nurses that they don't need those from the US, or importing them more cheaply from another country. These position seem to be for the relatively few gaps in their skill set, rather than for nurses in general--quite a different story from that of people coming to this country.

So far as your comment about those of us no longer active in nursing never coming back anyway--many of us WON'T, until and unless conditions improve markedly. And nurses here on working visas and immigrating here simply make it easier for our healthcare system to NOT improve (not that it might anyway, without them).

No, foreign-born nurses did not create the health care problems here, nor is it their/your obligation to fix them, nor can you be faulted for taking advantage of a chance to make more money by coming here, but you can probably see why it irritates some people. Just like strikebreaking. But in both those kinds of situations, I do realize that the villains are our institutions, not the individual nurses involved. For example, if I could go back to Vancouver, BC (the most lovely city in which I have ever lived) and work in a reasonable setting for $50-$75/hour, I probably would. For a couple of years, anyway.

Having lived and worked in your country for 4 years (as a seaman, not as a nurse) when I was a landed immigrant, and having taveled the entire southern half of it, I must say that there are many more differences of all kinds between Florida and Minnesota than there are between California and Southern British Columbia, for example. Nice to see things so CLEAN up there, I must say.

Best wishes

across the border

fergus51 · Aug 21, 2002

Well thanks sjoe, we try to keep it clean. But, the point about Americans working abroad still stands. If SA has certain gaps in ICU or other specialties they could train their own nurses just like we could here, but they don't because it is easier to get a foreign nurse. The vast majority of nurses we import to BC are also specialty nurses (our health region has recently cut funding to train our own med-surg nurses to specialties). I just think that it's silly that most American nurses are lured to places like SA or the UAE for the big $$$$ but we seem somehow angry that immigrants would be lured here for the exact same reason.

I should tell you I LOVE San Diego and am seriously considering relocating there!

mopsi · Aug 21, 2002

This should be the hotest topic on the board..The Cleveland Clinic started this action about 6 months ago and has been sucessful in actually lowering wages in Northeast Ohio...The cost of living has been steadily increasing ..Corporate profits and management bonus packages are increasing while the worker bees take the hit..I hope someone out there has some valid constructive means for all of us to make a difference...The concept of Power to the People has been erradicated and replaced with Power to the Corporation since the late 70's..We are adopting the thought process of "you can't fight City Hall" coupled with "It's not hurting me so why make waves"..In the meantime we are losing all ground and being placated with feeble apologies..Opps sorry about your 401K.Opps sorry about all your money lost in this little Savings and loan scandel...opps sorry you can't afford healthcare for your family( you could work some overtime to pay for it)opps sorry we eliminated you job(until we find someone to do it for 1/3 of what we paid you, but they'll do it cuz they are Tax Free because of they're status) Oh and these little issues of people working..taking the money out of the country..not paying taxes getting freebies up the a** isn't corporates problem..because they still get BIG$$$$$ for saving all this money..I'm sure at one of those plush tropical company paid seminars ...these strategies are gobbled up by the BIG BOYS along with the delicacies offer to them on silver platters...So what do we do????I feel so disempowered as the the tone of the others suggests..Anyone of you have a light bulb go on???Can you give some suggestions to solve this very grave problem..I have written my Congressman and got a very nice letter back...We losing ground in more ways than one..How do we get some back????

Dr. Kate, BSN, RN · Aug 21, 2002

"THERE ARE ENOUGH NURSES ALREADY IN THE US TO STAFF!"

Forgive me for going back to the beginning of this thread but SusyK I sure would like to know where all those nurses there are enough of in the US are living. They're not here in California where we have the lowest ratio of licensed RNs to population in the country. 93.6% of the licensed RNs in California are working.

We do not have enough RNs to staff and generalizations like the one you made serve more to cloud the issue than to enlighten it. It is facile and short sighted to hold forth that the only thing needed to solve the nursing shortage is to find out why nurses are leaving the field.

Undoubtedly, some nurses leave nursing because they are disillusioned by the reality of the profession, the working conditions, or the pay scale. But there are other reasons not the least of which is finding nursing is not a good fit for the person. Frankly, I don't want a nurse caring for me or mine who flat out doesn't like being a nurse and is there because nursing pays well. and he/she feels there is no other option. (I said that with hesitation but the truth is compared to many other professions requiring more formal education, nursing pays well.)

The nursing shortage is a multifaceted problem that cannot and will not be solved by any one simple "fix".

At best the importation of nurses from other countries is a stop gap measure, at worst it is a form of indentured servitude. Within the last year my facility imported two nurses, one from India and one from the Phillipines. They were supposed to meet a particular profile of education, experience, and personal encumbrances (essentially no husband or kids to worry about. One had no experience the other a husband and baby.) In return for facilitating their entry into the country, finding them housing, transportation, preparing for and taking the NCLEX, and orientation, they had to commit to working here for 3 years. How many US nurses are willing to make that kind of commitment to a hospital?

I am not saying there are not significant issues with the importation of nurses to the US, only that there's more than one side to the discussion.

ANnot4me · Aug 21, 2002

I have written a letter to my union and to my government reps regarding this issue. I believe it to be bad practice. I am one of those nurses who left for 2 years because I was tired of being treated like crap. I have been back a year and I'm ready to head out again because I just get exhausted by the stupid stuff I deal with on a daily basis. I am a darn good nurse and a decent human being and I can only take being treated like a second class citizen for so long before I start to get moody.

I hope you are all going to tell your legislators how you feel because that's an accountable and productive way to handle the situation...