Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ?? - page 10

I am watching FOXNews and they just reported they have received a "bulletin" about a shooting at a nursing college in Tuscon. They will break in more more news as they get it. Two women have been... Read More

  1. by   Mkue
    I have a male in my program who has had similar marriage/divorce, financial problems as Mr. Flores did.

    Jake, not his real name is around 40, funny, a joy to be around and he has magnificent coping skills.. He was almost forced to quit school to work more hours because an ex-wife raised the child support and he faced time in jail. He did not quit, he took out a loan to help pay for the increased expenses and he still struggles with problems from the ex. Oh sure he has days when he wants to throw in the towel but we encourage him to stick with it. He actually adds so much to our program and our lives and the instructors don't treat him any differently.

    Oh and he also came out of the closet after his last marriage and works on the side as a Drag Queen.

    I wonder if Mr. Flores had received support from family and friends if things would be different. Someone mentioned today that he did actually seek support/counseling from his school back in April, and he may have fallen through the cracks.
  2. by   abrenrn
    I posted a couple of days earlier, expecting to be slammed. I wasn't and now I hear people saying the same things I feel.

    Roland - yes, I certainly believe part of nursing school is to prepare for a servile role. I'm sure there is garbage in all of academia, but I had a degree before I went for nursing and what I found in nursing school was completely different from anything I saw before. When I went for my MSN the only places I would feel safe/comfortable, not worry about getting in trouble because I might sound too smart, were two classes I took at the College of Public Health.

    I wish there was a way to define and study such issues. I think it is important - how can someone feel primary responibility to their professional licenses (and therefore patients) if they are also expected to behave in a servile manner towards others with dfferent priorities?

    It is a dilemma.

    Murder is wrong. But there is an increased incidence when there is a rage producing situation. With a reduction in rage, I think one would see a reduction in murder. Rage is an emotion - but, there are frequenly events in the environment that trigger it in susceptible individuals, I think the same events that can trigger depression in those who are susceptible. Those who do not have backgrounds that lead to rage or depressed responses are also impacted by these types of triggers: with frustration, anger, denial or escape.
    While we can work on identifying those who are susceptible or deal with the aftermath when these become full blown, as nurses, could we try to work on the environmental triggers as well?
  3. by   sanakruz
    Hey Rusty your daughter needs a shave! (O U Mean the other picture....)
  4. by   sanakruz
    (Can they really yank you nursing license for being a deadbeat?)
    I certainly recall instructors with capricious ways. I dont doubt he had legitimate beefs, and that he knew he was unliked. I'm sure I dont get the murder part. But why do schools have to be so cut-throat and competetive? Are we fashioning them after med schools? We are a separate discipline. ( You all know that) I dont get this seemingly unsypathetic -to -your -personal- needs part either.
  5. by   rncountry
    In the state of Michigan anyone who has to have a license to do their profession is subject to losing it if they are in arrears. That includes physicians, nurses, attorney's, plumbers, electricians, contractors etc...
    And yes, here there have been people who have had their license suspended for child support arrears.
  6. by   Youda
    I haven't read all the posts on this thread, and I don't intend to. I have read enough. I just finished reading Bob's letter.

    If you folks haven't learned to recognize the signs of bullying yet, I sure wish you'd start now. I can't condone Bob's actions, of course. But, it was inevitable, just like it was inevitable at Columbine. One person starts to bully, and everyone else decides there is something wrong with the person, too. Bit by bit, the person is destroyed, and the depression and anti-social behavior that was CAUSED by the bullying is just used as "evidence" to support the first person's bullying.

    I see it here in some of these posts. I don't mean to criticize anyone. I just want you ALL to start being aware that this kind of behavior that was done by the faculty members is highly destructive. It was bullying.

    It never ceases to amaze me how totally cruel people can be to each other; then how surprised they are when someone has had enough.

    I beg of you to start getting sensitive to the dynamics of this behavioral syndrome. Someday, maybe you'll have a chance to put your hand on the next Robert Flores' arm and tell him that you understand what he's going through, instead of ostracizing him. And maybe, just maybe YOU can stop the next Columbine or Arizona shooting, because you can stop the destruction with an ounce of compassion.

    If you read my posts, you'd know that I really shy away from controversial topics, and try to keep it cordial and helpful. But, this time, some of you are just plain wrong. Read this thread. Follow the links. Learn something. Flame away. I really don't care.

    http://allnurses.com/forums/showthre...e+you+a+victim
  7. by   abrenrn
    Youda, your eloquence overwhelms me.

    lisainaz - I am sorry you were there and experienced this tragedy. Recently, I returned to NYC, my home, and have seen the impact of the WTC events on those who were there, witnessed it, and lost loved ones. The destruction you witnessed may have been on a smaller scale nationally, the experience of witnessing any sort of destructive act must, I think, be the same.
    I am also sorry that you felt you should not have posted your comments as others asked the link be posted as well. I appreciated your comments and point of view.

    I ask the question I asked before? Can something positive come out of this tragedy? It appears the killer hoped there might be a positive outcome for nursing education.

    Noting the aftermath of Columbine, the lawsuits that arose from it, and the changes in education that resulted, he said, "The instructors will make statements to the effect I was unbalanced .... The worse they make me out to be the more ammunition they will give to litigants."

    If nothing else, he knew his instructors. The school is claiming that he was unbalanced, suicidal, and, once before, had reported him to the police. They did not report him to the licensing board and when contacted by the police said they would counsel him. They are providing a road map, as he expected, for the lawyers to follow.

    While it should not require murder to address the bullying attitudes of instructors, schools of nursing, and employers, it has happened. Even though it means doing what a killer wanted, perhaps nursing education can be changed.
  8. by   mark_LD_RN
    as an instuctor i have been threatened a few times by failing students, once even had tires slashed,

    I do not buy into the poor student crap, he may have been pushed hard but who is not in nursing school. this does not justify premeditated murder. and we should not be such bleeding hearts to help justify his actions, he was wrong plain and simple. he planned it, why else would he take a gun to mid terms.

    i personally carried a gun and keep one in my vehicle,not once have i brought it to class. was this going to be show and tell class or what?


    on the issue of gun control, people have the right to have guns( at least in the united states) if they were outlawed only criminals would have guns. I personally have been protected by my gun. I would never use it to settle and argument or harm an inocent person, but I be damnned if you try to harm me you may find out what the business end of it looks like.


    we need not justify his wrongful act, in doing so just belittles the nurses and people who were tring to help him. if they were truely out to get him , don't you think their are beter and more proper ways to do it other than murder!
  9. by   abrenrn
    Frankly, Mark, I believe the instuctors belittled themselves. If any of the letter is to be believed (and it rings true to many on this thread), the instructors decided on their own rules, changed them on a whim.

    You might also consider if there might be some reason you seem to have so many tires slashed, etc. It's never right to be destructive but I can see how small people with a little bit of power will sometimes use that to destroy the future of someone they don't like, someone who they feel embarrasses them by asking something they don't know. Education is meant to be about continued learning. Even instructors can learn. One hopes.

    I've known a few people who have taught for years and who have never had tires slashed. I only taught one semester, my tires remained intact. How is it you seem to get all these destructive students?

    As Youda said, flame away. It's easier than looking at the problem, isn't it?
  10. by   mark_LD_RN
    well let me tell you a thing or 2 abrenrn, most of my studentslove me, but if you fail it is your fault not mine i give them every opportunity to learn stay after hours on my own time if they want to seek my help. I will help in anyway,but i will not give them answers to tests , i will not pass ones who do not meet the minimal standards.
    i never belittle or embarrass a student.

    as far as the threats and the tire slashing (which was not so many as you conviently constrewed the facts of the post)that was at a school in apoor section that had very low admitting standards. almost anyone got in,and god forbid if you failed them.

    i can say were i teach now I have not had that problem, even though i have had to fail students. it is not easy to fail someone as you seem to think. I know how hard it is to get education with alot of outside stress. and i sympathize with the ones who don't make it. but i can not lower the bar just because someone can not make it. not every one can be good at all things. failing nursing does not mean ones is dumb just that maybe it is the wrong career for them.

    there is no way any one can justify murder even if the things that were said to have been done to him were true. to insinuate that it is ok to murder if someone pushes youto far is ridiculous. in that case if pushed to far all crimes should be forgiven including rape.

    I wonder if you have realy ever taught how much have you belittled yourself. do you just pass people out of pitty or fear? do you think the standard should be lowered just so no one fails?

    maybe we should just throw out the whole grading scale and instead of failing a student we can just give them a learning in progress tag and pass them along,so they can become dangerous nurses. is that what you want?

    FRANKLY abrenrn, i find it insulting that you could even insinuate it is my fault to have recieved a threat. when you do not even know me or have a clue. go ahead and forgive a murderer and blame the innocent victim. one day you may be on the other end, and we will see how your friendsand family feel about that!
  11. by   mark_LD_RN
    I have experienced many of the things that he said in his letter. I was told men can not be nurses, i had instructor who purposely assigned me patients that would be trouble. and i am still paying back student loans and am poor. BUt I did not resort to murder and never did it cross my mind.

    jsut try to use your imagination if you can ,to imagine what it was and still is like to be a male working in my area,how many jobs have i been denied just because of gender,even though I had bills to pay,lost my house etc. and felt the effects of illness and depression, but still i did not kill.and feel if i did i would still be in the wrong,that is no ecuse to kill.

    he was wrong and committed a crime let us not forget that. the blame lies squarely on his shoulders and no one elses. passing the blame helps no one!
    Last edit by mark_LD_RN on Nov 1, '02
  12. by   sjoe
    "I don't mean to criticize anyone."

    Why not, Youda? Feel free.

    Your post inspired me to read Bob's letter, and I'm glad I did. It sounded like MY nursing school, frankly, but the main difference was that I was not working at another job, I had no other financial or family responsibilities, and I had the time and the experience to stand up for myself and put the abusive instructors on the defensive. When one of them told me that I intimidated many of them (apparently thinking this would bother me), I said "Great." But the same kind of vague, unspecified criticisms and the lockstep class/clinical system were very familiar.

    They went ahead and pushed around many of the female students and one of the males, but they backed off from the rest of us when we made it obvious by our confidence and assertiveness that we had hired them to do a job and we expected them to do it. More than half of the instructors, by the way, were not bullying, did not try to make up for their (often justified) lack of confidence by abusing students, and were simply doing a good job of teaching and guiding people who wanted to learn to be nurses--which, after all, was the reason we were there.

    To change the subject:

    (Again I remind my fellow BB participants, if you find the posts of any certain person offensive, annoying, less than useful, lame-brained, etc. simply click on "profile" of any one of them, scroll down and select "put this person on my ignore list" and you'll never have to read another one of their posts. It works very well. I highly recommend it.)
    Last edit by sjoe on Nov 1, '02
  13. by   nightingale
    Originally posted by Youda
    I haven't read all the posts on this thread, and I don't intend to. I have read enough. I just finished reading Bob's letter.

    If you folks haven't learned to recognize the signs of bullying yet, I sure wish you'd start now. I can't condone Bob's actions, of course. But, it was inevitable, just like it was inevitable at Columbine. One person starts to bully, and everyone else decides there is something wrong with the person, too. Bit by bit, the person is destroyed, and the depression and anti-social behavior that was CAUSED by the bullying is just used as "evidence" to support the first person's bullying.

    I see it here in some of these posts. I don't mean to criticize anyone. I just want you ALL to start being aware that this kind of behavior that was done by the faculty members is highly destructive. It was bullying.

    It never ceases to amaze me how totally cruel people can be to each other; then how surprised they are when someone has had enough.

    I beg of you to start getting sensitive to the dynamics of this behavioral syndrome. Someday, maybe you'll have a chance to put your hand on the next Robert Flores' arm and tell him that you understand what he's going through, instead of ostracizing him. And maybe, just maybe YOU can stop the next Columbine or Arizona shooting, because you can stop the destruction with an ounce of compassion.

    If you read my posts, you'd know that I really shy away from controversial topics, and try to keep it cordial and helpful. But, this time, some of you are just plain wrong. Read this thread. Follow the links. Learn something. Flame away. I really don't care.

    http://allnurses.com/forums/showthre...e+you+a+victim
    YES YOuda.... yes....

    This is our oppourtunity to be a fly on the wall to someones pain... This man, Bob, suffered, trully suffered and was bullied. I saw it in my school.... Thank God I had so little of it directed at me... I "learned" to keep my head down and shut up....

    "Shutting up" is not what we should be doing here....

    We have this incredible oppourtunity to read what was in the mind of the accused.... Only the victims really know the other truths...

    Of course none of us are condoning guns, violence, and lowering standards of grades... none of us want the standards lowered.. but we are human beings getting through a very stressful ltime as we pass through nursing school....

    How much more I could have, would have, should have learned in nursing school had ALL of my instructors been appropriate, kind, and without a "different agenda"...

    I do not know why instructors do that.. granted not all.. but it is there... enough of it for ALL of US to recognize it....

    Take advantage of this oppourtunity and just think of how we can turn this terrible, painful, and unwarranted act of violence and turn it around to create good....

    "let it begin somewhere.... and let it begin with me"....

    B.

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