Sending nurses over from India??? - page 2

A nursing friend of mine just informed me that there is talk of training nurses in India and then offering them free housing to come work in the U.S. Is this true :angryfire :uhoh21: ? I was going... Read More

  1. by   Sheri257
    Quote from jgs284
    Take it from me, that is no assurance. I AM one of those out-of-work tech workers, now pursuing a nursing degree. This post made my blood run cold, because I do believe this can happen. Those Indian workers who provide tech support speak beautiful English, with only a slight accent. I can also see hospitals using this to drive pay DOWN. Supply and demand. What kills me is the wait lists to get into Nursing school here in COlorado is YEARS -- there are thousands of smart, qualified people waiting to get into clinicals. Would the state or federal government address the nursing shortage by fixing this bottleneck? No. That makes too much sense! But based on my own hard experience I can absolutely see them importing foreign, low paid nurses under some emergency exception to the visa laws. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.
    :uhoh21:
    I see your point. But I lived in Silicon Valley during the boom years. Tech companies were importing Indian and other foreign workers in droves and, if I'm not mistaken, the visa rules were much looser then. It didn't seem have much impact on salaries, mostly because those workers had the same cost of living that we do. You could bring an Indian programmer over here, but if he worked in the Valley, he still had to pay for the outrageous housing costs. You couldn't pay him peanuts or, if you did, he probably wouldn't stick around for very long. The train wreck really didn't happen until the tech jobs themselves were exported overseas, where the cost of living is much lower and the programmers will work for peanuts.

    The thing is, I don't see how you can export a nursing job. And foreign nurses do eventually demand the same wages that we do. Not too long ago a nursing home adminstrator in Orange County, CA was complaining on this message board about training foreign nurses who left her operation for better pay. No wonder since the housing costs in Orange County are outrageous, just like the Valley or, pretty much anywhere else in California. In another example, Filipino nurses successfully sued for higher pay when they were paid LVN rather than full RN salaries.

    Then you have projected demand of 5,000 new nurses just in the next year, not to mention a projected shortage of at least 200,000 vacant positions in the next 20 years, and that's just in California alone. I forget what the projections are nationwide, but it's a lot more. The reason is: You can't export healthcare jobs, and we have an aging baby boom generation, still the biggest segment of the population, that's only going to increase demand.

    On the other hand, I could be wrong. And I don't blame you for worrying about this. As Andy Grove said, "Only the paranoid survive." But I still think we have a better shot at job security with healthcare than any other industry, even if they bring a ton of foreign nurses over here. Afterall, they gotta eat and pay the same mortgages that we do.

    :spin:
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Apr 24, '04
  2. by   jgs284
    Yes! You are right! You can't outsource personal medical care. I am paranoid because I never would have believed the government would let US Companies outsource so much work. In my husband's company, they outsourced most of the IT department and this is a big DEFENSE contractor. Workers in Mexico are doing the IT work for Lockheed Martin Corporation, including personnel records and administration. I do believe if they (big business/hospitals) can figure out a way to outsource, they will, but it seems impossible, doesn't it? Thank you for your reply -- my blood is warming up! Now, if I could just get into clinicals .......
  3. by   Sheri257
    Quote from jgs284
    I do believe if they (big business/hospitals) can figure out a way to outsource, they will, but it seems impossible, doesn't it?
    Well, speaking of tech, outsourcing and paranoia, here's something to watch. Nurse robots:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1065623.htm

    Does this pose a long term threat? Who knows? I wonder if you can teach a robot "critical thinking" and all of the other stuff we have to learn in nursing school. :chuckle Not to mention, it's questionable whether the states or federal government would go for it.

    Nevertheless, since only the paranoid do survive, here's some of the more relevant quotes from the article.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Robots also offer potential in the medical field, where they can be used for nursing as well as for lifting and transporting patients.

    Mr Muroi said nurse robots are being developed to take care of a patient's paperwork and record and monitor temperature and medical condition around the clock.

    "They don't need to sleep", he said.

    Robotic "patient transfer equipment" meanwhile is being perfected by Daihen that would enable patients suffering from conditions such as bone fractures or cerebral haemorrhages to be lifted and moved safely without changing their position or posture.

    Another form of transport that could be a boon to the wheelchair-bound was unveiled late last year when Tokyo's prestigious Waseda University introduced the world's first two-legged walking robot capable of carrying an adult human being."
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Apr 24, '04
  4. by   suzanne4
    Quote from jgs284
    You wrote "Also note in order to hire a foreign citazen of any sort it must be proven that it is a job no US citazen wants or can fill. (Think migrant worker picking fruit for low wages in the hot sun.) So if US nurses are filling the positions, hospitals are not allowed to bring over foreign workers."

    Take it from me, that is no assurance. I AM one of those out-of-work tech workers, now pursuing a nursing degree. This post made my blood run cold, because I do believe this can happen. Those Indian workers who provide tech support speak beautiful English, with only a slight accent. I can also see hospitals using this to drive pay DOWN. Supply and demand. What kills me is the wait lists to get into Nursing school here in COlorado is YEARS -- there are thousands of smart, qualified people waiting to get into clinicals. Would the state or federal government address the nursing shortage by fixing this bottleneck? No. That makes too much sense! But based on my own hard experience I can absolutely see them importing foreign, low paid nurses under some emergency exception to the visa laws. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.
    :uhoh21:
    The Indian nurses have a BIG probelm with passing the TSE and TWE exams. This is well documented. The hospitals are not permitted to pay them differently. They are not coming in as temporary workers like they do in the I.T. field, but as permanent residents. Big Difference!
    Your choice was first high-tech, and you are changing to go into nursing, isn't someone else allowed to enter. Remember that nursing is always going to be here, and there will always be a need. I have been in nursing for over 25 years and have never once had a problem getting a job. Twenty five years ago there was a huge influx of nurses from the Philippines................
    Did it ever keep me from getting a job? NO . Did it keep me from working where I wanted to work? NO .

    I wouldn't worry about it. There si only going to be more of a need for nurses as the population ages, not less. In this lifetime, you definitely don't have to worry.
  5. by   suzanne4
    Quote from lizz
    Well, speaking of tech, outsourcing and paranoia, here's something to watch. Nurse robots:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1065623.htm

    Does this pose a long term threat? Who knows? I wonder if you can teach a robot "critical thinking" and all of the other stuff we have to learn in nursing school. :chuckle Not to mention, it's questionable whether the states or federal government would go for it.

    Nevertheless, since only the paranoid do survive, here's some of the more relevant quotes from the article.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Robots also offer potential in the medical field, where they can be used for nursing as well as for lifting and transporting patients.

    Mr Muroi said nurse robots are being developed to take care of a patient's paperwork and record and monitor temperature and medical condition around the clock.

    "They don't need to sleep", he said.

    Robotic "patient transfer equipment" meanwhile is being perfected by Daihen that would enable patients suffering from conditions such as bone fractures or cerebral haemorrhages to be lifted and moved safely without changing their position or posture.

    Another form of transport that could be a boon to the wheelchair-bound was unveiled late last year when Tokyo's prestigious Waseda University introduced the world's first two-legged walking robot capable of carrying an adult human being."
    If there is a robot to lift patients for me, great..................I remember when the digital machines came out that allowed a nurse to monitor BP, HR, Temp, and pulse ox at the same time, and there were quite a few nurses that thought that that would change their jobs and left them feeling insecure.
    Has it? Not at all. Just made our lives easier................And do you have any idea as to how expensive that these robots are going to be? I don't see hospitals running out to purchase them quickly.
  6. by   Rep
    I don't think that foreign nurses are taking away jobs mean for American nurses.

    In fact, the US goverment makes it harder for foreign nurses to get into the states. Here in the Philippines, the hindrance to it are the different English exams required. Most Philippines nurses failed in these exams although most of us can understand and speak the language well. Even the working visas they are issuing to foreign nurses require the English exams unlike before where one can go to the US with only a CGFNS Certificate. Not this time, aside from the CGFNS, there are the TOEFL, IELTS and TSE exams.

    But I can attest that foreign recruiters would spend everything for foreign nurses just to bring them to the US. These includes fees for the reviews and exams, immigrations , etc. Plus free housing for a couple of months.

    So, out of the thousands of Philipines nurses who apply every year for a job in the US , only a few hundreds can realize their dreams. And thousands are needed to ease the nursing shortage.
    Last edit by Rep on Apr 25, '04
  7. by   powel_44
    Quote from suzanne4
    You cannot get a green card without having English skills the same as a native speaker so that severly limits the amount of foreign nurses who will be coming over to the US. I wouldn't worry about them taking a job from you.
    There are more than enough to go around.....................

    There are actually some unscrupulous people over here promising the nurse that they can go to the US with only a CGFNS exam and no English requirements and work as an RN. Pay is about $16 BLENDED rate as they call it for California, meaning that the nurse works 12 hour... ................but as they say "What goes around, comes around."
    Im also a nurse from other country, i was advised not to accept a job offering a salary lower than $7/hour (whether a nurse or not) to any parts of the world. In US territory, an RN is receiving more than >$20/hour(probably at hospital settings)...
    Yeah, some poeple are unscrupulous. But one some read carefully the content eventhough the reader does not speak fluently. This will be his/her only guardian from trickery. It is true also that some are not good in english, communication may be mistransmitted that may lead to a further threat/burden. The TSE/TWE is a must. In on of the theory the General Adaptation theory, one/nurse must adopt to his environment, and so therefore, language may too...
    Before those nurse make a move ,that do not know that not only CGFNS should be taken in order to work in US, they must first accept the consequences have have been into. Or if they already know the trickery may be possible, they should have been anticipate it. THey must study englich language before accepting the job.
    Anyway, CGFNS may serve as a passport. If thewy do not pass in other exams. They can also work as a janitor, waiter in a fastfood. It is a good job with a good salary. Within two years you can buy car or maybe buy a house.

    Powel from Philippines
  8. by   Sheri257
    Quote from suzanne4
    If there is a robot to lift patients for me, great..................I remember when the digital machines came out that allowed a nurse to monitor BP, HR, Temp, and pulse ox at the same time, and there were quite a few nurses that thought that that would change their jobs and left them feeling insecure.
    Has it? Not at all. Just made our lives easier................And do you have any idea as to how expensive that these robots are going to be? I don't see hospitals running out to purchase them quickly.
    True. It does appear unlikely that this could replace nurses entirely, so I don't really view it as a threat. But you never know. I guess because I lived in Silicon Valley, I learned not to underestimate technology. Remember when the nobody thought the internet would amount to much? And, now, here we are.

  9. by   Hellllllo Nurse
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    Also note in order to hire a foreign citazen of any sort it must be proven that it is a job no US citazen wants or can fill. (Think migrant worker picking fruit for low wages in the hot sun.) So if US nurses are filling the positions, hospitals are not allowed to bring over foreign workers.

    It's a double edged sword. They are BSN prepared and are excellent nurses. It fulfills a dire need. On the other hand it allows the profression and management not to address the issues as to why there is a shortage in the first place.
    Exactly. It is very easy for health care employers to show the gov't that no Americans want their nursing jobs.

    Here's one way they do it:

    1. Obtain names and addresses of nurses licensed in their state from the BON.

    2. Spend big bucks on newspaper ads, ads in nursing publications, and mail expensive glossy, recruitment flyers with promises of a great job and huge sign-on bonuses to the nurses on ther BON list.

    3. When nurses call or come in to inquire about a job, the company tells them their are no openings, or just does not contact any of the applicants.

    4. They then submit documentation of their recruiting costs and efforts to the gov't, and tell them that their recruiting efforts were unsuccessful. They then apply for permission to import foreign nurses.

    This has happened several times that I personally know of in the two states where I have practised nursing.


    As I have said before (I know I am a broken record on this topic) there is no nursing shortage. Dept of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics stats show that there are 500,000 RNs currently licensed in The U.S. working in non-nursing jobs. The latest "shortage" stats show that The U.S. is "short" 100,000 nurses. Do the math- there is actually a surplus of 400,000 registered nurses right now in The U.S. These stats don't include LPNs. There may or may not be a surplus of them, but we don't know, as they were not included in the stats.

    I have a nursing web site, and several members there are licensed regostered nurses who no longer work in nursing for all the reasons that nurses here in allnurses have stated. Mainly, working conditions.


    Health care corporations have no trouble circumventing U.S. nurses in order to import foreign nurses. They will have an even easier time of it, now that Bush has made importation of foreign workers even easier, AND pushed to eliminate the overtime pay benefit for RNs.

    And now, NY state wants to require all RNs to have a BSN- How convenient that most foreign nurses have a BSN, and that New York in often the first destination for foreigners arriving from the Far East to work in The U.S.


    These things don't happen by accident. Health care corporations have an agenda. They spend lots of $$ on Washington lobbyists, political contributions, etc to see that they get what they want.
  10. by   Tweety
    Quote from jgs284
    You wrote "Also note in order to hire a foreign citazen of any sort it must be proven that it is a job no US citazen wants or can fill. (Think migrant worker picking fruit for low wages in the hot sun.) So if US nurses are filling the positions, hospitals are not allowed to bring over foreign workers."

    Take it from me, that is no assurance. I AM one of those out-of-work tech workers, now pursuing a nursing degree. This post made my blood run cold, because I do believe this can happen. Those Indian workers who provide tech support speak beautiful English, with only a slight accent. I can also see hospitals using this to drive pay DOWN. Supply and demand. What kills me is the wait lists to get into Nursing school here in COlorado is YEARS -- there are thousands of smart, qualified people waiting to get into clinicals. Would the state or federal government address the nursing shortage by fixing this bottleneck? No. That makes too much sense! But based on my own hard experience I can absolutely see them importing foreign, low paid nurses under some emergency exception to the visa laws. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.
    :uhoh21:

    It's very expensive to bring over a foreign worker and sponsor them, etc. So I'm not sure hiring them is driving costs down. But it sounds like you have more experience in this area than I do.

    I think hiring foreign workers can be somewhat of a copout. Why not jump start the nursing programs here, first by finding and paying good wages for instructors and pumping money into the expanding the programs so the waiting list nurses can start today! As you have pointed out.

    Then address with why there is a shortage in the first place. Fix what's wrong rather than put a band-aid on a large open wound.

    On the other hand, the unit I work on has benefited from seven newly hired Filiopino nurses, with BSNs, and good work skills and ethics. This provides immediate relief and safe ratios. They are making the same hourly rate as the rest of us, so they are not driving the wage down. (I'm a charge nurse and have privy to salary information on those I evaluate.)
  11. by   rasmu
    Quote from hellllllo nurse
    exactly. it is very easy for health care employers to show the gov't that no americans want their nursing jobs.
    everyone should read this recent article from the times of india. it was written for an indian audience. it talks about how indian businessmen are gearing up to target the u.s. healthcare job market.

    i've been hearing more and more talk about how college-educated american workers in various occupations are being replaced with overseas workers that are being brought in on work visas. nursing is definitely on the list.

    although the number of indian nurses entering the u.s. job market may be small now, and even beneficial at the moment, the number is going to explode within the next 5 years. the numbers as yet are not large enough to effect wages or to provoke layoffs of american workers, but with all of the free trade agreements in place, we are living in a whole new world. people are paying particular attention to the indians, because of what they did to the job market in the computer field. with a country of over 850 million people, they can produce a lot of nurses.

    you should read some of the stories about what has happened to people in other fields - company management brought in the foreign replacements, and just fired all of the americans. the rules of the worker visa programs are supposed to prevent that from happening, but they do nothing of the sort. you can't help but worry that healthcare administrators might get the same ideas.



    -------------------------
    may 2, 2004 pti new delhi: the shortage of nurses in the us has brought a boom in the profession in india, with nursing schools coming up at every nook and corner of major metros and big hospitals grooming their nurses for working in american hospitals.

    not a single day passes without placement agencies and even big hospitals putting up ads luring nurses to work in america and how it can change their fortunes. "india is at the threshold of yet another boom in international placement. earlier it was it professionals, now it is nurses. international placement has come of age with this opening of first major migration route to the us for skilled professionals since the collapse of it wave," says dr d k baluja, medical superintendent, jaipur golden hospital, here.

    "as of today, by conservative estimates alone, there is a shortfall of about one lakh nurses in the us. other countries like uk, canada and australia are likewise affected. according to us government projections, by the year 2008, another 450,000 nurses may be needed to meet the demand," says mr ravi mittal, director operations, mepco, a manpower recruitment organisation.

    "to cash in on the demand, around 15 new nursing schools are coming up in the ncr region alone. big hospitals too have started training their nurses and placement agencies have fast come up in major metros and especially south india," says mr mittal.

    "in the us, most youngsters today are not willing to take up such a stressful profession and rather prefer accounting or management jobs. as a result, the shortage has been building up since last 10-15 years," says mr mittal.

    the average nurse age in american hospitals today is 46 years, which means there would be serious crisis in next 15 years. however, getting to the us is not just hop-step and go. these nurses need to pass a major bottleneck of the cgfns certification exam. thereafter, it takes a technical process of documentation, processing, visas, placing in appropriate positions and ensuring that they get all the benefits, says dr baluja.

    it is for this purpose that placement agencies are fast coming up and even leading hospitals have opened up counselling centres for training the nurses for the cgfns certification exam, he says. the commission on graduates of foreign origin, which conducts these exams earlier did not have a centre in india and the indian nurses who wanted to go to america had to sit for the exam in bangkok.

    "however, the americans have now recognised india as a potential source for nurses and the exam would now be conducted at bangalore," says dr baluja.
    "out of our first batch of 20 trained nurses which appeared for the exam, 10 have qualified," says mr mittal, noting "we plan to send around 200 nurses this year to the us."

    [font='times new roman']going by the numbers it is very small and all the placement agents together cannot fulfil the demand, he notes. however, the boom in health placement is here to stay and the trend will pick up in india in next two-three years, says dr baluja. the healthcare industry is the new bluechip item and the trend is here to stay, he says.


  12. by   suzanne4
    You have forgot one thing. There has been a problem with the Indian nurses being able to pass the TSE exam. Without it, no green card. Nurses do not have the luxury of having a "work permit" available to them, only the green card. Which means English skills equivalent to those of a native. I personally know of a large group of Indian nurses who were brought over, actually to Detroit, on H1-B visas when they were still available, but could not pass TSE and TWE, so no hospital would allow them to begin working.
    Now they need to have those exams to get a green card, no way around, unless theyare married to an American. Even if they begin their training tomorrow, it will take about 18 months for them to actually have a green card in hand. And that is if they pass their exams. Nursing is very different in India compared to the way that it is practiced in the US.................

    I deal with this on a daily basis and I am not afraid of it. There will more than enough work for everyone. With a green card, the hospitals are not permitted to offer a different rate to those nurses like they could with nurses under an H1-B.
  13. by   jgs284
    [QUOTE=suzanne4]You have forgot one thing. There has been a problem with the Indian nurses being able to pass the TSE exam. Without it, no green card. Nurses do not have the luxury of having a "work permit" available to them, only the green card. Which means English skills equivalent to those of a native. "

    What I have learned from hanging around on this earth for 43 years is, things change. Also, the business aspects of health care (HMO's, hospital administrators) are motivated by money. So what I see happening is realxing the rules for foreign nurses based on an "emergency". Allowing their Indian licensing exams to suffice. That is what happened to the programmers. The hospital's concern is with the bottom line, so rather than address working conditions for nurses, rather than support more US nurse training, they'll lobby for a relaxation of restrictions on foreign nurses based on a "crisis". Imagine the TV ads paid for by corporate interests appealing to people's sense of safety when they go to the hospital. "The Nursing shortage has caused a health care emergency! Your children's safety is at risk! Vote YES on allowing these well-trained Indian nurses to bypass our beaucratic rules!" Then when there are a million Indian nurses in the United States, wages go down. Worry wart me, I suppose.

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