No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time - page 7
by TheCommuter 69,858 Views | 340 Comments Senior Moderator
I am assured that some of you are reading this and saying to yourselves, "Duh! This topic is old hat. We already know there's a glut of nurses in many parts of the country, so why are you writing about this?" Here is my reason... Read More
- 4Jul 4, '12 by OCNRN63Quote from kcmylorni also find this sentiment offensive. "gee, i can't wait for some older nurse to get sick and have to retire so i can have my dreeeaaammm job!"i have the need to vent-
1. at age 56, i am a baby boomer. i do not consider this retirement age, old age or elderly!!!! unless one is very wealthy, like your ceo's but that is not me. i have a bankruptcy to pay off and 20 more years of mortage payments and zero for retirement except what ever social security is, which is not a kings ransom. so please stop posting that there is going to be this mass exodus of "the baby boomers" like it is going to be the biggest anticipated funeral of all man kind- i am very offended!!!! i would also like to add- i am no one's grandparent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i totally resent the sentiment- "get out. should retire. it's my turn." save those sentiments for your parents- who probably encourage such entitlement. they may appreciate them- i don't. it is rude, offensive and obnoxious- like passing gas in public., or the 5 year old brat i heard screaming in the waiting room today telling a stranger adult to "shut up" and his young mother not correcting him- whoopie another generation of entitlement.
2. there are nurses( alot of nurses) out there who have been employed in the same job for years that do not realize how hard it is to find a job these days for the young nurse and the old. forget educating the doctors. we have to educate our own who are clueless.
- 0Quote from chucksterLaw school applicantion rates are indeed coming off the high of several years but there are several reasons.I'm not sure that this is a valid comparison. While it's true that there will be some engineering, law, business, etc. grads who will never see employment in their chosen field of study, their degrees are much more portable than a nursing degree. Engineers can (and do) get hired for many non-engineering jobs and the same is true for lawyers (in fact, this has been the case for some time and something like half of all law school grads never actually practice law). Very few businesses will hire someone with a BSN for a position in say, business operations, but those same concerns will consider engineers, JD's and business grads for such a job.
Another important difference is that it costs someone - often the taxpayer - a considerable sum to train student nurses. This is over and above the tuition and fees that students themselves pay. When someone trains as a nurse and ultimately cannot find employment in nursing, that money is effectively wasted. If it is true as the OP's reference stated, that more than one-third of nursing grads are not employed as nurses, this represents a considerable investment for naught. If this is a structural thing, and for the foreseeable future one-third to upward of one-half nursing school grads will not be employed as nurses, it represents a massive investment that is for all intents and purposes, wasted and probably should be used for other purposes.
What worries me most though, is that the laws of supply and demand do not seem to be working in nursing. While for example, law school admissions have declined considerably over the past several years in response to the poor job market for lawyers, this is not the case for nursing school enrollment. The numbers of nursing students (and new RN's) has increased dramatically over the past decade and worse, continue to increase, even as rates of nursing unemployment (and underemployment) have jumped. Unless this changes, the predictions of nursing shortages looming in the near future would seem to be flights of fancy.
Yes, word is getting out that new lawyers are having a hard time finding legal work especially those high paying top firm associate spots that will allow them to make a dent in their student loan debt. But there are other reasons as well.
The dirty little secret is finally emerging from what many in the legal profession have known for ages. There are only a handful of top ranked law schools in this country that it's worth bothering to attend much less go into deep debt. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Georgetown and perhaps a few others really are the only game in town if you want to work for a top firm and or make the sort of connections that put you into government or the federal bench. Look around Congress, The White House, State Department and so forth. You'll see the same law schools listed over and over on resumes of presidents, judges, senators, congressmen, etc...
Then there is the fact the business of law is changing. Firms are laying off, going bankrupt or simply going out of existence. Meanwhile companies are finding ways of reducing their legal costs. Work is being outsourced to other countries, or places are hiring their own internal attorneys. What is clear is that there is a trend away from paying vastly inflated sums for billable hours for work done by first year associates. That is one of the key reasons new law grads are having such a hard time finding work.
- 0Quote from animal1953Have said this before as well. Nursing assistant positions are a particular problem for facilities in terms of finding quality personnel willing to put up with conditions on the ground for wages offered.As you all are speaking from the RN stand point, I'm a new CNA grad, taking my state (FL) boards on the 14th. I've been applying since before graduation and was finally told they will reevaluate my application after I have my license. The places I've applied are the one where I am known because of my wifes illnesses and hospitalizations. I live in a area that is highly retired and the median age is 65 - 70. There are 6 different schools pumping out students 2 - 3 times a year as CNA's. We have to get experience somewhere but LTC and ALF are not where my focus and drive are. The job market here suck unless you want to flip burgers or work at Walmart ect. I chose this profession because I've had asthma all my life and my wife has had 2 strokes and has swallowing issues as well as 3rd degree burns on the backs of her legs. I did the wound care at home after being trained by the wound center staff. I had all these skills I've learned in my lifetime and felt that it was time to do something with them. I check the various job boards and hospital web sites and there are jobs there but getting in the door and selling myself is the major challenge. I guess that my point is that it's not only BSN,RN and LPN folks having trouble, the very entry level CNA's are in a world of hurt also.
Depending upon where you look places are either getting shot of NAs leaving nurses to get on the best they know how, or increasing the assistant ratio and using less nurses.
Assistants have always been the backbone of the nursing service, more so as student nurses were removed from providing free labour to facilities. However for all the often back breaking work they do pay is usually not that good. Yes, some NAs aren't what they should be given reports here and elsewhere, but again what does anyone expect when many positions pay barely above minimum wage?
On top of all this there is nothing NAs or other UAPs do that nurses cannot. So bean counters looking to stay in budget and looking for cost savings seem to be getting rid of NAs and spreading that work to the professional nurses. However for such a primary care model to work staffing has to be at levels so ratios allow a nurse to devote her or his resources properly. That usually doesn't happen.
- 0Jul 4, '12 by RNGriffinI'll present a sense of logic behind this post. True, there may not be a shortage in the amount of licensed nurses/registered nurses. There is a shortage in the amount of skilled nurses to perform in certain areas of dire need. There will continuously be a shortage of nurses if you examine the qualifications of new grads. Most new graduates will find a home in nursing, but not in the desired practice. There will be a shortage in patients, but as more individuals view the healthcare field as recession proof, we have less reimbursement coming in the healthcare facilities. Thus, this presents the problem that nurses are not needed or can not be afforded.
A lot of tenured nurses build this scare tactic of there is a nursing shortage-there isn't a nursing shortage, based on their economic or employable standards. Colleges are producing more graduates in broad fields from law to arts. This means, whatever field you choose to work in there will be those who are unemployable and those who will be able to secure positions.
Is there a nursing shortage technically? No. Is there a need for additional nurses nationwide? Of course. The labor field works off of statistical predictions ,not current necessity. The nursing shortage is based off of a 15 year retirement rate, which is bound to be adjusted if the recession is proven to be our new economy!
- 0Quote from tothepointeLVNThere are only a handful of ways law grads make big money in the United States.Considering how expensive law school and supposedly how smart you are supposed to be to get in then I agree somewhat with the judge.
Disclosure: I was a law student in NZ and I dropped out as soon as I realized that I'd need to be in the top 25% of my class to be able to get any kind of a job as a lawyer. Luckily I was only OOP about $1500NZD. You can go direct entry into law school back home so I had only just finished high school but even I could see the writing on the wall.
The first is to work at/become a partner at a large and sucessful firm otherwise known as selling one's soul to the "billable hours" devil. Next there are government appointments or politics. Academia can bring prestige but is not promise of a big pay package. Finally there is the most common way which often blends several of the above; make a living suing anyone or thing that breathes.
From civil court cases to major corporate ones a bulk of attorneys in this country make a living from dragging people and or businesses through the legal system. Everytime you see a Microsoft suing a Google you can bet there is an army of attorneys on both sides making a decent living. The latest goldmine is the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). Attorneys are now scouring the country looking for places they think aren't in compliance with the law, find a disabled person to start the court case and then it's off to the races. Because the law provides the defendant must pay legal fees the attorney makes thousands or even hundreds of thousands per case, from which the disabled person is given a few hundred for his/her troubles. Mind you the disabled person may never have actually set foot or been discriminated against by the business or place, still the way the law is written it doesn't matter.
This was covered in local NYC media a month ago. There are lawyers who live in Florida and elsewhere outside of the state that routinely come to NYC to search out buildings,shops and so forth that they think aren't in compliance with the law, then begin as outlined above. The thing has become so lucrative that there are now legal seminars to instruct lawyers how to get in on the gravy train.
- 1Jul 4, '12 by Not_A_Hat_PersonQuote from DoGoodThenGoBoth of my sisters are lawyers. One went to a first-tier law school, and survived a hellish first job (independent contractor, no benefits) before getting a job with the state. The second went through 3 jobs before joining the Army and becoming a JAG.Then there is the fact the business of law is changing. Firms are laying off, going bankrupt or simply going out of existence. Meanwhile companies are finding ways of reducing their legal costs. Work is being outsourced to other countries, or places are hiring their own internal attorneys. What is clear is that there is a trend away from paying vastly inflated sums for billable hours for work done by first year associates. That is one of the key reasons new law grads are having such a hard time finding work.
A law firm in Boston made the news last month for posting a full-time associate job paying $10,000 per year, less than minimum wage. That kind of salary would make a new lawyer eligible for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and subsidized housing. Worse, more than 50 new grad lawyers have applied for the job.Last edit by Not_A_Hat_Person on Jul 4, '12 : Reason: more info
- 1Quote from Not_A_Hat_PersonForgot to add in my OP on the matter above that other dirty little secrets have come out about law schools recently. One is that is by and large law schools do not teach one how to actually practice, that comes after graduation in those coveted full time first year associate positions. But rather one is taught about the law, theories and so forth. Learning the acutal nuts and bolts of how to practice comes post graduationBoth of my sisters are lawyers. One went to a first-tier law school, and survived a hellish first job (independent contractor, no benefits) before getting a job with the state. The second went through 3 jobs before joining the Army and becoming a JAG.
A law firm in Boston made the news last month for posting a full-time associate job paying $10,000 per year, less than minimum wage. That kind of salary would make a new lawyer eligible for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and subsidized housing. Worse, more than 50 new grad lawyers have applied for the job.
There are graduates from all manner of law schools top and low that upon graduation do not know the most simple basics of the profession. Things such as how to bring and manage a lawsuit in court, drawing up contracts and briefs, etc.. It is during the grunt work of being an associate that one learns these things. In short law is rather like nursing in that one does obtain permission to practice by passing an exam, but there is so much pratical knowledge yet to learn in order to function.
The other secret is that by and large professors especially at the top law schools are not chosen because they are sucessful practicing attorneys. Rather selection generally relies upon published bodies of work such as what appears in law journals. For those here it would be like hiring nurse educators that have never actually practiced at the bedside or had *VERY* limited experience.
Am not surprised many would jump at the chance to get an associate gig even at $10K per year. No one is probably expected to remain in that spot for long,but the experience gained is worth far more than the pay.Last edit by DoGoodThenGo on Jul 4, '12
- 0Jul 4, '12 by WildcatFanRNQuote from HM-8404Did I misunderstand your post or did you say you graduated nursing school in 2008, can't get a job and don't see that as a sign of not being employable?
No, you didn't misunderstand. It may not being something I'll enjoy doing, but I'll find something. I also will most likely have to move someplace else where they actually are hiring, even though I can't really afford to. I have to keep plugging away because I refuse to believe I just wasted several thousand dollars on a useless RN license.
- 5Jul 5, '12 by smartnurse1982I believe someone on the previous page pointed out what I believe to be the problem.Schools should emphasize that a majority of today's nursing students WILL NOT work in hospitals. Hospitals are becoming a thing of the past. Most,maybe a little over half,will end up working in community based nursing to include homecare and ambulatory care.I myself have 8 years experience as a nurse. 4 were as an Lpn,4 as an Rn.I have been doing private duty for all of those years as my primary job.it seems there are many openings In private duty,yet we also have a glut of nurses in Nj. I haven't worked in a hospital before,but I don't feel that has had any effect on my ability to perform skiiled nursing care. There have been times when the hospital nurses asked me how to operate a vent or insert a G button.
What I do feel is having a HUGE impact on the shortage of nursing jobs is imported nurses.
I was actually on another board and someone said that the reason healthcare is so high is because nurses make too much. She said her sister in law made 60 dollars an hr. and that a nurse shouldn't be making that much. I don't know where she lived,but nursing pay in Nj has been dropping,and it seems to drop every year.
Case in point: I was with this company for 3 years. When I relocated,I was making $30.00 an hr in 2009. I recently re applied with the company,and they told me they can't start me off with that amount because the new wage for someone with my experince was 27/hr. Mind you,I started with the company making 30/hr as a new grad.Last edit by smartnurse1982 on Jul 5, '12