Never placed an IV!!!!! - Page 10

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  1. Jun 16, '12 by
    Quote from primafacie
    for all i know, maybe they did obtain consents. do you think they would refuse medical tx because they didn't want anyone messing with their cadaver should they die? apparently you want to attach a class struggle to it.

    as for would i allow this to happen to a family member of mine? once the person is dead, why does it matter? this is my personal and spiritual belief, and who are you to question it? apparently you also missed the class on multicultural awareness and acceptance.
    i don't really think that because i question the act of taking bodies from "the indigent ward" and practicing non life-saving nursing skills on them that i am turning this into a "class struggle". i understand that bodies that have no identification (after attempts to determine this have been exhausted) may get used for research--i have conflicting feelings on this, but i don't actually oppose it. however, the patients at your facility i can assume were alive for part of their stay--most of the time, a patient admitted to the hospital has some background that can be discovered fairly quickly through a little research (even if the patient was too sick, injured, or mentally ill to identify himself). you said you didn't know if they'd signed a consent--that's worth finding out, as you have no idea who that person was or what their beliefs were about death. honoring a patient's wishes in death is being culturally competent--what you believe is not a factor when you are acting upon another human being. and if signing a consent for post-mortem prodding was required in order for a homeless person to receive medical treatment, then this either happened long long ago, or you were not actually working for an accredited facility.

    Quote from primafacie

    you are awfully indignant thinking there is a difference between harvesting organs or educational practice.


    what does this sentence mean? do you mean ignorant?

    Quote from primafacie
    both these things are critically important and schools turn out many a brilliant doctor/nurse who in turn saves countless lives because of the skill learned there.
    i did say that i have no problem with cadaver use for medical/surgical research and to learn life-saving and high risk skills. sticking a foley into a corpse is morbid and totally unnecessary (and probably impossible).

    Quote from primafacie
    and lastly, what does humane conditions for testing, have to do with wearing fur? those are 2 unrelated concepts. use caution when using phrases like "cognitive dissonance" when you don't truly understand them.


    no, actually, i use words and phrases that i do understand. so, you're ok with animal research for medicine as long as the animals are treated humanely. and you're also ok with animals being treated in-humanely prior to being slaughtered so that you may don a pretty garment. this is an excellent example of cognitive dissonance.


    (apologies for momentary thread derailment, think it may be time to step away)
    Last edit by kanzi monkey on Jun 16, '12 : Reason: lol, formatting
  2. Jun 16, '12 by
    Quote from dirtyhippiegirl
    Damn, you've never seen a boob IV?

    /fat chicks with thin arm veins tend to have great boob veins
    I had to google that, I thought it might have been a thing.

    Back on topic, I was never allowed a live stick in LPN school, while in the Army they showed us once on a fake arm, then gave us a handfull of catheters and told us, "Ok! Buddy up!"

    It was a much better way to learn, however I prematurely puffed myself up and thought I was amazing, because I succeeded in my first attempt... (On a young man in perfect shape with veins the size of garden hoses).
  3. Jun 16, '12 by
    Quote from kanzi monkey
    Honoring a patient's wishes in death is being culturally competent--what you believe is not a factor when you are acting upon another human being. And if signing a consent for post-mortem prodding was required in order for a homeless person to receive medical treatment, then this either happened long long ago, or you were not actually working for an accredited facility.

    What does this sentence mean? Do you mean ignorant?

    I DID say that I have no problem with cadaver use for medical/surgical research and to learn life-saving and high risk skills. Sticking a foley into a corpse is morbid and totally unnecessary (and probably impossible).

    No, actually, I use words and phrases that I do understand. So, you're ok with animal research for medicine as long as the animals are treated humanely. And you're also ok with animals being treated IN-humanely prior to being slaughtered so that you may don a pretty garment. This is an excellent example of cognitive dissonance.

    It is growing tiresome responding to you because you twist things, ignore the points, neglect to read the links I provided, and generally don't understand or are refusing to understand that something just is as it is (or was).

    First of all, I didn't invent the concept of using corpses for medical study/practice. Some here are offended by it, but does that mean we should pretend it didn't happen? The only reason I brought it up is, and let's get back to the original topic by the OP.....I gave an example of how real time practice was obtained while in school.

    Secondly, you asked what I felt personally about if it was my family member. So my response was to that, not towards the other situation of strangers. I can not assume I know the belief system of strangers, unless they tell me what it is.

    I assure you that my school of nursing was accredited, and though the nursing diploma program no longer exists, (as most diploma programs do not) the affiliated university remains to this day, one of the top medical schools and medical/research centers, in the country. You will just have to take my word for that.

    indignant: expressing strong displeasure at something considered unjust.

    cognitive dissonance: used to describe the feeling of discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs.

    I have no conflicting beliefs.

    Why do you say animals are treated inhumanely to obtain fur? For some types of fur they may be, but many other types, they are not. You can't make a general assumption. Educate yourself. The cows that are hung with throat slit, and bled out right in front of their calves, while still alive, to make your Burger King/McDonald lunch are treated much more inhumanely. Many people will cringe at fur while wiggling their toes in real leather shoes. Do you think synthetics are more humane to the environment than a fur coat that has been passed down and used by several generations? Think. Not everything is so black and white.
    Last edit by PrimaFacie on Jun 16, '12 : Reason: spelling error
  4. Jun 16, '12 by
    Using anyone's body, dead or alive, without consent = repugnant. It's grossly immoral and unethical, period. Not knowing how to start IVs = meh, no biggie.
    myelin, hiddencatRN, Gator Girl 2000, and 6 others like this.
  5. Asst. Admin
    Jun 17, '12 by
    Quote from Prima Facie

    It is growing tiresome responding to you because you twist things, ignore the points, neglect to read the links I provided, and generally don't understand or are refusing to understand that something just is as it is (or was).

    First of all, I didn't invent the concept of using corpses for medical study/practice. Some here are offended by it, but does that mean we should pretend it didn't happen? The only reason I brought it up is, and let's get back to the original topic by the OP.....I gave an example of how real time practice was obtained while in school.

    I assure you that my school of nursing was accredited, and though the nursing diploma program no longer exists, (as most diploma programs do not) the affiliated university remains to this day, one of the top medical schools and medical/research centers, in the country.

    Not everything is so black and white.
    It makes perfect sense now..... Even I was growing annoyed at the implication of using the indigent.

    I think the statement "indigent ward" set off the sensibilities of today's nurses and then the thought of practicing on them. Is what everyone saw as upsetting.

    ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!!!

    Just for the record......I remember "indigent wards" and every facility had them. Those patients were treated differently. The units were staffed differently. They looked different....almost barren. They had no families to protect them. They were homeless, from the "Poor farms", or orphanages.

    It was the ONE thing I HATED about nursing when I started.

    I stand corrected........those things did happen.

    They were wrong then and they are wrong now. I remember my 1st year nursing instructor persuading me to stay because I told her if this was nursing I wanted out! The "wards" were separated by Insurance, "Private Pay", government pay with separation of medicare and medicaid....and the indigent....no pay.

    For all you who don't remember these times.....THIS REALLY HAPPENED. It was horrible.

    This is why you now have all the rules and regs. The Joint Commission. EMTALA. HIPAA. CMS and any other surveying/regulating body. So when you are frustrated about The JC regs and new incentives.......remember this thread and you'll know why they are necessary and why compliance isn't just a way to make your life miserable.

    Peace...

    Last edit by Esme12 on Jun 17, '12
    hiddencatRN and DroogieRN like this.
  6. Jun 17, '12 by
    Quote from Esme12
    This is why you now have all the rules and regs. The Joint Commission. EMTALA. HIPAA. CMS and any other surveying/regulating body. So when you are frustrated about The JC regs and new incentives.......remember this thread and you'll know why they are necessary and why compliance isn't just a way to make your life miserable.

    Peace...
    Thank you......Nursing school and hospitalizations back then was a world apart from how it is now. (except for the stress level)

    I don't get any exposure to recent grads in my current path, so that is why I was quite shocked to see nurses graduate now with so much less practical experience.
    Esme12 likes this.
  7. Asst. Admin
    Jun 17, '12 by
    Quote from Prima Facie
    Thank you......Nursing school and hospitalizations back then was a world apart from how it is now. (except for the stress level)

    I don't get any exposure to recent grads in my current path, so that is why I was quite shocked to see nurses graduate now with so much less practical experience.
    Sadly......They get very little. It started dropping dramatically in the early to mid 90's. Many graduate without ever putting in a foley or dropping an NGT. This is what has lead to the hospitals right now not wanting to hire new grads as they require so much training and guidance for at least a year. Then they leave after they get that "year under their belt" for bigger and better things.

    Many facilities now require participation in new grad residencies....and some facilities are charging the nurses for them! with no guarantee of a job when you are done. They get a RN to pay them for orientation with no promise of a job. The problem? There are so few residencies they fill and had extensive 2 year or more waiting lists. Shameful really.

    The minute you mentioned diploma graduation for you I realized what you were referring to.....that animal thankfully doesn't exist anymore.

    Hang out.....check out the forums. Much has changed. Peace

  8. Jun 18, '12 by
    Quote from Esme12
    Sadly......They get very little.


    The minute you mentioned diploma graduation for you I realized what you were referring to.....that animal thankfully doesn't exist anymore.

    Hang out.....check out the forums. Much has changed. Peace

    -Yes, it is very sad that they get very little hands on experience.

    -I'm not sure why you say what you do about Diploma grads. The only drawback was the additional length of time to complete the program, but the hands on clinical experience was unmatchable. Diploma grads came out as competent, skilled professionals.

    -I haven't been out of nursing, just not in a position where I see new grads.
  9. Asst. Admin
    Jun 18, '12 by
    Quote from Prima Facie
    -Yes, it is very sad that they get very little hands on experience.

    -I'm not sure why you say what you do about Diploma grads. The only drawback was the additional length of time to complete the program, but the hands on clinical experience was unmatchable. Diploma grads came out as competent, skilled professionals.

    -I haven't been out of nursing, just not in a position where I see new grads.
    My only excuse is age related Brain flatus............

    That little voice inside my head typed.....

    "The minute you mentioned diploma graduation for you...... I realized what generation you were referring to and the hospitals as they were then with the separate wards.....that animal thankfully doesn't exist anymore." My bad...

    I agree....Diploma grads were the best skilled graduates skill wise and that type of grad does not exist anymore in any program but the isolated diploma program. I was an early ASN grad myself, from a program that was literally moved from the hospital and had it's offices placed on the college campus.....Poof! college course college degree. My sister was a diploma grad. Compared to the all programs today........ The amount of time outside the lab time I had to spend was tremendous.

    I remember having to show up at clinical at 4 am to help the night nurses prep all the patients pre op or having to have to go to the OR early to put in all the Foley's and NGT's. Still have clinical and go to the campus for the evening nursing lectures....4 days a week. We even had to "work weekends" for school clinical...much like the diploma grads.

    I didn't mean to imply you were out of nursing........I meant look at all the new grad chatter and nursing school chatter to find out how much school and taking their boards have changed. I know I was suprised about many of the aspects especially they can take the boards multiple times.

    A vast difference from "our day"
  10. Jun 18, '12 by
    Quote from Esme12
    My only excuse is age related Brain flatus............

    A vast difference from "our day"
    Sorry, didn't mean to put you on the spot, but thanks for the clarification.

    I'm a little sorry for the new grads of today because they get less experience, yet twice the hassles from admin, and at least 5x the worry of litigation and/or co-workers throwing them under the bus. Nursing is difficult enough without all the new worries.
    chevyv likes this.