help me buck the system, please! super-traditional pinning ceremony that nobody wants - page 7

Hi all- I'm posting this in the general discussion rather than the student discussion, as I want to hear from people who were successful in doing something like this. I'm the president of my... Read More

  1. by   PennyLane
    Quote from nurse_wannabe
    I won't have to visit the chapel, and I won't be forced to attend staff meetings there. As a matter of fact, I doubt I'll even walk by it on a monthly basis.
    That's a good point--holding staff meetings in the chapel would be very unappropriate, unless, of course, it's a religious hospital. Even then I think that would be pushing it. Why would a state CC have a pinning in a church?
  2. by   PennyLane
    Quote from CCU NRS
    I really wonder why the symbols would bother someone who is confident in their belief system?
    The point is that it's inappropriate. It's not a religious school. The OP's school has ample facilities. There's NO REASON to have it in a church.

    If other students want to visit the church for a ceremony on their own, fine, but the OP attends a STATE school. I think the reason would be pretty clear. Separate church and state. Don't make people go to a church for their pinning! You may not be offended if your school held a ceremony in a temple, church, etc., but you can't assume that everyone feels that way. It's not fair to others.
  3. by   nurse_wannabe
    Quote from CCU NRS
    I don't know about walking by it in MY facility it is right by the main entrance and everyone that enters that way walks past it daily.

    As for trying to change anyone's belief's I haven't, I simply asked for a clarification about what is so threatening about a public building where Church is held?
    At the hospital here, the chapel is down a relatively empty hallway. I'm not sure what else is even down that same hall.

    Okay, if buildings and religious symbols shouldn't threaten anyone, why don't we take a group of Christians and expect them to hold a ceremony in a dark room with inverted pentagrams, baphomets, upside-down crosses, and goat heads all over the place? Keep in mind, this is just a public building where satanic rituals are held.
  4. by   CCU NRS
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    and you were answered, CCU NRS! H ave a great day, and I hope the OP's pinning is what her class wants it to be; it's their moment, not anyone elses'!
    Well it should be for all of them. If they are all against it being in a Church they should rally for a change, my poinit was that a church is just a building. Why do people that don't believe in God or Religion feel threatened by a Church or religous symbols or anything at all?

    I guess what I am saying is I am confident in my belief's and feel that everyone may worship or not who ever or whatever they feel they want to but I am not threatened by anyone elses religion or their sybolism or their practices. So Why are non-believers so threatened by the symbols we Believer's revere?

    It is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. Think about it if you are non-religious or do not beleive in God then you are obviously not afraid to be a non-believer or announce that you don't believe in God(which to me would be the very thing that would brings God's wrath if that were something you feared), but the symbols that we use to worship scare or threaten or offend to the point that feelings are that they are subjected to our belief system just by being in the presence of it's symbols?
  5. by   CCU NRS
    Quote from PennyLane
    The point is that it's inappropriate. It's not a religious school. The OP's school has ample facilities. There's NO REASON to have it in a church.

    If other students want to visit the church for a ceremony on their own, fine, but the OP attends a STATE school. I think the reason would be pretty clear. Separate church and state. Don't make people go to a church for their pinning! You may not be offended if your school held a ceremony in a temple, church, etc., but you can't assume that everyone feels that way. It's not fair to others.
    Again I am not trying to tell anyone how to feel I am trying to undertsand what is so offensive or threatening?
  6. by   rach_nc_03
    [QUOTE]
    Quote from CCU NRS
    Please enlighten me. How is religion being forced on you just because something is held in a church? If it isn't a religous ceremony it isn't religous. A church is just a building. Many functions can be held there. As I mentioned many devout christians go to many ceremonies in many buildings and never make it out to be a way to break their religous beliefs.
    I totally agree with your point- lots of other functions are held in churches- AA meetings, community events- that are open to people of all beliefs, and are not religious services.

    I still contend, however, that your 'if x = y, and y = z, then x = z' argument about religious people attending ceremonies in other buildings is erroneous. If you- as a christian- were asked to attend your graduation in a mosque, with an invocation given by an imam, and the men and women were going to be asked to sit separately, and pray, and bow to mecca- would you? Personally, I think you would not. I've asked a lot of people, devout followers of many faiths, how they feel about this topic, and they all agree with me- even my closest friend at school, who happens to be a devout evangelical christian. she respects my position, and we have actual discussions- civil ones- about the topic.

    Were they going to make you pray?
    yes.

    Was there going to be prayer?
    yes.

    Was there going to be a Preacher or minister?
    yes.

    The director of the program is some sort of official in his church, and various faculty members have, in the past, sung christian songs and/or read scripture.

    The church is a congregation of people that come together to worship, a building is just a building. A building where a church meets is often considered a church but if you look into it you will find that NO building is really what contains God or religion, people house God.
    Religion 101. I mentioned before that I was a religious studies minor at University, so I know this. But including the aforementioned elements *makes* the ceremony a reliious one.

    Religion is a set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
    Indeed. And it is not legal, in the US, for a faculty member of a state-funded institution to take on the role of a spiritual leader in the context of a graduation observation.

    I just want to add that it seems strange to me. If a person does not believe in God or organized religion then why would a House of worship threaten you?
    I think you're being inflammatory, and making an assumption that isn't valid. No building *threatens* me. I have attended many religious ceremonies, held in all types of buildings- ornate chathedrals, converted warehouses, barns, hindu temples- and never once did I feel threatened. Whether or not I believe in god or organized religion isn't the point- in fact, I don't think I said whether I did or not. the point is that, in this country, our constitution specifically protects *both* the state AND the church by separating the two. Blurring that line, by having this event in a church, and filling the ceremony itself with prayer and deference to a *specific* faith, is where I think the problem lies.

    It would seem to me that "Church" or house of worship would have no meaning at all if you had no belief? So I would really like to know what the issue is.
    If I 'had no belief', then absolutely, the "church" would have no meaning at all. Again, you make an assumption without having all the data- that, if I don't agree with your belief system, I must have none at all. I think I've clearly articulated, through several posts, what my problem is. No building has ANY significance to me, based on the building alone. If this event were being held in a very large cardboard box, but contained the same faith-specific elements, my problem would still exist.

    I hope I have, as you requested, explained thoroughly what the issue is.
  7. by   rach_nc_03
    Quote from nurse_wannabe
    At the hospital here, the chapel is down a relatively empty hallway. I'm not sure what else is even down that same hall.

    Okay, if buildings and religious symbols shouldn't threaten anyone, why don't we take a group of Christians and expect them to hold a ceremony in a dark room with inverted pentagrams, baphomets, upside-down crosses, and goat heads all over the place? Keep in mind, this is just a public building where satanic rituals are held.
    or a large portrait of an islamic cleric, or a huge statue of ganesh...or a torah on the altar. or all of the above.

    as nurse_wannabe has pointed out, it's *not* because it's a christian church- it's because it's a *religious ceremony* for a *state institution*
  8. by   rach_nc_03
    [QUOTE]
    Quote from CCU NRS
    Well it should be for all of them. If they are all against it being in a Church they should rally for a change, my poinit was that a church is just a building. Why do people that don't believe in God or Religion feel threatened by a Church or religous symbols or anything at all?
    My problem with your posts is that you make an assumption that, because I don't agree with YOU, I 'don't believe in god or religion'. the rest of your argument is based on this assumption, which is not correct. maybe that's why you don't understand my points.

    I guess what I am saying is I am confident in my belief's and feel that everyone may worship or not who ever or whatever they feel they want to but I am not threatened by anyone elses religion or their sybolism or their practices. So Why are non-believers so threatened by the symbols we Believer's revere?
    the point is that I'm not asking you to worship, at your public institution's graduation, the way *I* believe, or the way anyone else does.

    and, you keep saying that I'm somehow threatened by religious observances. I'm not. I think I've said, numerous times, that I've attended religious services held my christians, jews, hindus, muslims, buddhists, and a few unitarian services that somehow rolled all these traditions into a single hour (now THAT was something to see!). As a person whose beliefs about god do not fit into the dominant paradigm in contemporary american society, i'm quite used to being told i'll be burning in hell. all i ask of you, and of anyone, is to realize what specific protections our constitution affords you, me, and everyone else in the US.

    Time and time again, people get sidetracked like this, and they never really get at the root of the issue. you have chosen to dwell on the notion that a building does not a house of worship make- something about which we agree. but try to really understand what I'm saying, without getting wrapped up in making this about 'believers' (do you mean christians?) and 'nonbelievers' (again, I don't know precisely what you mean by this term- and whether or not you mean that someone who doesn't believe in god at all is somehow less valuable than someone who does).

    the fact that my argument holds legal merit is what makes the US different from some of the countries on this planet who have a state-sanctioned religion (or prohibiton thereof). the same constitution that protects me and my beliefs protects *you* and your belief system. personally, I think it's one of the most important protections afforded by our government.

    It is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. Think about it if you are non-religious or do not beleive in God then you are obviously not afraid to be a non-believer or announce that you don't believe in God(which to me would be the very thing that would brings God's wrath if that were something you feared), but the symbols that we use to worship scare or threaten or offend to the point that feelings are that they are subjected to our belief system just by being in the presence of it's symbols?
    I hope my earlier comments have cleared up this misperception- there's not a symbol on this planet that scares, threatens, or offends me. in fact, I find the symbology of many religious to be quite beautiful- which was part of why I studied religions.

    this weekend, I took care of a brain cancer patient who happened to be a devout muslim. his wife brought in prayer bottles, and asked that I made sure they were not accidentally discarded. I asked her to explain the significance of the prayer bottles, and she demonstrated the ritual for me. I thought it was incredibly beautiful, and I told her so. when I left last night, I thought about how wonderful it is that this family felt at ease observing this tradition on our hospital, when, in many corners of the world, it would have to be done in secret. that, for me, embodies why I am pursuing this issue in the first place.
  9. by   CCU NRS
    [QUOTE=rach_nc_03]
    I totally agree with your point- lots of other functions are held in churches- AA meetings, community events- that are open to people of all beliefs, and are not religious services.

    I still contend, however, that your 'if x = y, and y = z, then x = z' argument about religious people attending ceremonies in other buildings is erroneous. If you- as a christian- were asked to attend your graduation in a mosque, with an invocation given by an imam, and the men and women were going to be asked to sit separately, and pray, and bow to mecca- would you? Personally, I think you would not. I've asked a lot of people, devout followers of many faiths, how they feel about this topic, and they all agree with me- even my closest friend at school, who happens to be a devout evangelical christian. she respects my position, and we have actual discussions- civil ones- about the topic.

    yes.

    yes.

    yes.

    The director of the program is some sort of official in his church, and various faculty members have, in the past, sung christian songs and/or read scripture.

    Religion 101. I mentioned before that I was a religious studies minor at University, so I know this. But including the aforementioned elements *makes* the ceremony a reliious one.

    Indeed. And it is not legal, in the US, for a faculty member of a state-funded institution to take on the role of a spiritual leader in the context of a graduation observation.

    I think you're being inflammatory, and making an assumption that isn't valid. No building *threatens* me. I have attended many religious ceremonies, held in all types of buildings- ornate chathedrals, converted warehouses, barns, hindu temples- and never once did I feel threatened. Whether or not I believe in god or organized religion isn't the point- in fact, I don't think I said whether I did or not. the point is that, in this country, our constitution specifically protects *both* the state AND the church by separating the two. Blurring that line, by having this event in a church, and filling the ceremony itself with prayer and deference to a *specific* faith, is where I think the problem lies.

    If I 'had no belief', then absolutely, the "church" would have no meaning at all. Again, you make an assumption without having all the data- that, if I don't agree with your belief system, I must have none at all. I think I've clearly articulated, through several posts, what my problem is. No building has ANY significance to me, based on the building alone. If this event were being held in a very large cardboard box, but contained the same faith-specific elements, my problem would still exist.

    I hope I have, as you requested, explained thoroughly what the issue is.
    You are absolutely correct I made assumptions with out all the data. Which is what I have been asking for all along. Now you mention prayer and being lead by the minister and several other things. I never attempted to be inflammatory I attempted to pose my querry so that it would not offend anyone, and no you never said you didn't believe which is why I stated IF you don't believe or IF organized religion. I was merely trying to gain full understanding. It seems you have a valid concern, but prior to this it was not clear there would be prayer and Minister officiating etc. My theory was if you were just protesting the Separation of Church and state I could see getting around it. If you have bigger issues then go for the change, hey I am just discussing the matter I am in no way emotional about it, if I have offended I apolgize, thanks for the clarification.

    You seem like a worthy Class President, and staunch advocate you will likely make a wonderful nurse!

    Congratulations on your graduation and Good Luck in all your endeavors!!!
    Last edit by CCU NRS on Jan 17, '05
  10. by   CCU NRS
    [QUOTE=rach_nc_03]
    My problem with your posts is that you make an assumption that, because I don't agree with YOU, I 'don't believe in god or religion'. the rest of your argument is based on this assumption, which is not correct. maybe that's why you don't understand my points.

    the point is that I'm not asking you to worship, at your public institution's graduation, the way *I* believe, or the way anyone else does.

    and, you keep saying that I'm somehow threatened by religious observances. I'm not. I think I've said, numerous times, that I've attended religious services held my christians, jews, hindus, muslims, buddhists, and a few unitarian services that somehow rolled all these traditions into a single hour (now THAT was something to see!). As a person whose beliefs about god do not fit into the dominant paradigm in contemporary american society, i'm quite used to being told i'll be burning in hell. all i ask of you, and of anyone, is to realize what specific protections our constitution affords you, me, and everyone else in the US.

    Time and time again, people get sidetracked like this, and they never really get at the root of the issue. you have chosen to dwell on the notion that a building does not a house of worship make- something about which we agree. but try to really understand what I'm saying, without getting wrapped up in making this about 'believers' (do you mean christians?) and 'nonbelievers' (again, I don't know precisely what you mean by this term- and whether or not you mean that someone who doesn't believe in god at all is somehow less valuable than someone who does).

    the fact that my argument holds legal merit is what makes the US different from some of the countries on this planet who have a state-sanctioned religion (or prohibiton thereof). the same constitution that protects me and my beliefs protects *you* and your belief system. personally, I think it's one of the most important protections afforded by our government.

    I hope my earlier comments have cleared up this misperception- there's not a symbol on this planet that scares, threatens, or offends me. in fact, I find the symbology of many religious to be quite beautiful- which was part of why I studied religions.

    this weekend, I took care of a brain cancer patient who happened to be a devout muslim. his wife brought in prayer bottles, and asked that I made sure they were not accidentally discarded. I asked her to explain the significance of the prayer bottles, and she demonstrated the ritual for me. I thought it was incredibly beautiful, and I told her so. when I left last night, I thought about how wonderful it is that this family felt at ease observing this tradition on our hospital, when, in many corners of the world, it would have to be done in secret. that, for me, embodies why I am pursuing this issue in the first place.
    Your previous comment did clear it up I am not sure what you mean by some of this, I don't get too wrapped up in organized religion I simplify things and break it down to Believers and non-bleievers, I never say which camp is correct and I never said either camp was better just different. I never said anyone was threatened by religious symbols I asked what the problems were.
    Last edit by CCU NRS on Jan 17, '05
  11. by   rach_nc_03
    Quote from allamericangirl
    I just want to add that it seems strange to me. If a person does not believe in God or organized religion then why would a House of worship threaten you? It would seem to me that "Church" or house of worship would have no meaning at all if you had no belief? So I would really like to know what the issue is.

    DITTO!

    What is the real issue here?
    By the way, if you are offered a job with a Catholic, Baptist, or other medical facility with religious affiliation, will you refuse the job? What will you do if the hospital you work in has a chapel in it (a church inside the building where you will be working). Won't that be like working in a church?
    that's NOT the issue!!!! I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I used to be a musician. Grew up in a family of church musicians, in fact, and have worked in four churches as a musician. in each instance, I asked if I had to share the beliefs of the church to be an employee- all said no. right after I left my last church job to take a hospital job (clinicals conflicted with choir practice), they hired a new minister who wanted all the musicians to share the belief system of the church. when I met him later, I told him it was a good thing we'd not worked together, as he would've had to fire me. He actually had a good laugh over that, and asked if he could pray for me, which was totally fine by me. He did not, however, try to convert me, and when he asked me to pray with him and I refused, he didn't take offense at all.

    I chose not to attend certain schools, when offered music scholarships by them, because they required attendance at chapel services. I would be happy to work in a religiously-affiliated hospital, just like I worked in churches, as long as they didn't have a problem with my beliefs differing from those espoused by the institution. If they did, I wouldn't work there. There are countless places for me to provide excellent nursing care that won't require me to share their religious beliefs.

    Need i point out that I'm entering the nursing profession, *not* a convent, or the priesthood? As for the point about not working at a hospital with a chapel, your argument is really illogical. Our hospital has a chapel. I asked someone from pastoral care if it was specifically intended for one religious organization over all others. He said that it was not- it's a place for people to worship in the way they see fit. A jewish family of one of our dying patients had asked me to find out for them, and I took them to the chapel myself.

    I apologize to all of you if my initial post wasn't clear. I thought it was- that my problem is with the ceremony being religious in nature, and the school being a state institution. So often, I encounter people who simply stop listening when I make this argument...turning it into an 'us versus them' battle with christians and 'non-believers'.

    Now, if you (not this specific poster, but anyone reading this thread) believe that the US government should legislate religion, then by all means, fight for that. It's your right, as a citizen, to pursue public office, and lobby your governmental representatives.

    Just like it's *my* right to attend a pinning ceremony that is *not* a worship service.
  12. by   rach_nc_03
    Quote from purplemania
    you certainly have a lot of issues. Why don't you just not go to the ceremony? Think of it like a wedding. Someone else is making the plans and you can decide to attend or not. Certainly easier on the psyche.

    I agree that the ceremony should be for the students, but why let it ruin your last semester and your relationship with students/faculty? Just don't show.
    I'm actually a pretty laid-back person, most of the time. I have a few soapbox issues- the main ones being cruelty, and church/state separation.

    We've been told that our attendance is required. I'm going to get that clarified- if the consequence is that they withhold our diplomas, or don't send in our NCLEX-RN registration, I'll be calling the NCBON.

    It's not ruining my relationships- if you look back at the thread, the main problem I had in the first place was the ludicrous attire. that issue is something all students agree upon. and, like i said, my program director respects me *because* I am outspoken, and an activist, when I see things I think are unjust. He thinks that quality will make me a great nurse.
  13. by   hypnotic_nurse
    Quote from CCU NRS
    Again I am not trying to tell anyone how to feel I am trying to undertsand what is so offensive or threatening?
    It is not offensive or threatening; it is INAPPROPRIATE.

    CCU NRS, this is not specifically directed at you, there were several other posters who seemed to leap to the conclusion that religion in this context is offensive or threatening; it was obvious to me that the OP wasn't approaching it that way.

    Our society is inclusive of a lot of different types of people, religions, and ideas. When one way of thinking predominates, the ones who are continually told to shut up and go along with it eventually get fed up. I think the US is seeing a lot of "no longer willing to go along with it", which is uncomfortable for the people who are dominant as they feel their views are squashed when really the other groups just want to be heard for a change, or at ther very least not have someone else's stuff shoved down their necks.
    Last edit by hypnotic_nurse on Jan 17, '05

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