Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions - page 4

You all are probably aware that PT requires (or will soon require, can't recall) the masters degree for entry into practice. Pharmacists need the PharmD. Etc., etc. Did any of these other... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    sorry, i just blanked this post here.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Oct 10, '02
  2. by   Mattigan
    I didn't say ADN's were on the bottom rungs but they aren't at the top of the stairs either. I think in the nursing/health care heirachy it would be UAP's or PCT's or Nurse Aides and I work with unlicensed personnel who are great and can take care of me anytime. Some are happy with what they do and donot want to go back for anymore education (or responsibility) and some do . BOTH IS OK. I was a nurse aide for 8 years, they see the patient more than anyone. I know..

    The more education you have the better prepared you are. I know nurses who got their MSN years ago and haven't picked up a journal since. Not ok. I doesn't have a damn thing to do with DEGREES it has to do with EDUCATION.

    DO NOT BELITTLE ANYONE FOR THE PATH THEY HAVE CHOSEN.PERIOD

    you didn't listen to me either.
  3. by   MICU RN
    Susy K:

    Love your post and agree with it 100%. Putting the profession first and not taking the debate so personal will be a key for positive change. And in regards to VSUMMER"S post it is obvious that the he/she is taking the issue personal, with comments like " it took me 2 years to just take the prereq.'s". Well it took me almost two years also. Why? Because I went to school part-time and worked full-time. The bottem line is how many credits did you need to graduate? Most AD programs require about 72, counting clinical hours. And it usaully takes someone who is a full-time student 1-2 semesters to complete the prereq's. and then go to school for 24 months. If anything, I regretted not going for my BSN initially because it only would have taken 3-4 more semesters and I would have it out the way. And the issue is not whether Ad nurses can do their jobs as well as BSN prepared nurses, we do it every day, it is about taking an important step towards becoming a more respected profession. That is one of the reasons I went back and enrolled in a RN/BSN program.
  4. by   Mattigan
    Originally posted by cheerfuldoer
    I second the "waiting for the debate to begin"!!!

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

    Nothing like a good scream to start the day!

    I am sooooooo sick and tired of being sick and tired of nurses arguing this debate and trying to instill something that should be a personal level of education for each person. IF......AND I SAY THAT LOUDLY.........IF.....having a certain degree made a more qualified nurse, end of cheerfuldoers guote.


    Exactly.... people are different and lives are different and we have to make different choices from one another.






    then why in the hellskee.....like my new word...........why in the hellskee don't those "so called educational differences" show up on the NCLEX in alllllllllllllllll the years nursing grads have been sitting for the same NCLEX exam? Can anyone answer me this?
    OK- to further "damn" myself (you did notice my signature line about not tormenting myself with shalow water- didn't you).

    Passing the NCLEX does not mean anyone is a good nurse. It just means they have the minimum amount of knowledge necessary to be safe.
  5. by   shannonRN
    i think that this thread is a wonderful example of how nurses are willing to turn on each other in a heartbeat. one word...cohesiveness. we need to stick together and support one another regardless of our degrees. i don't think that anywhere in this thread, someone has criticized someone for their degree. when i say that nursing should require bsn for entry level, i am not saying that the asn prepared nurse is worthless (for lack of a better word). and i am pretty sure that most of the posters aren't implying this either. i am sure that we all know a adn nurse that can run circles around that bsn prepared nurse.

    many people take this debate personal (adn/bsn), and to me, that is not what it is about. it is about gaining respect for our beloved profession.

  6. by   deespoohbear
    I consider myself to be an important part of a team who cares for the patient. Even though I am only "an ASN" nurse, I am serve frequently as charge nurse on my floor, even when there are BSN prepared nurses on the same shift. Why? Because I am a competent and capable nurse, with more experience than some of the BSN nurses on our floor. The degree doesn't make the nurse, the abilities and skills make the nurse.

    I also feel that if you are a nursing manager over a certain department, your skills better be up to date with whatever area you manage. The staff you are managing will have more respect for you if you able to work along side of them, not just stand there and bark orders. It is hard to know what us people at the bottom of the rungs of the ladder are experiencing at the bedside if you aren't there once in awhile.
    Last edit by deespoohbear on Oct 10, '02
  7. by   globalRN
    Originally posted by MICU RN
    Susy K:

    Love your post and agree with it 100%. Putting the profession first and not taking the debate so personal will be a key for positive change. And in regards to VSUMMER"S post it is obvious that the he/she is taking the issue personal, with comments like " it took me 2 years to just take the prereq.'s". Well it took me almost two years also. Why? Because I went to school part-time and worked full-time. The bottem line is how many credits did you need to graduate? Most AD programs require about 72, counting clinical hours. And it usaully takes someone who is a full-time student 1-2 semesters to complete the prereq's. and then go to school for 24 months. If anything, I regretted not going for my BSN initially because it only would have taken 3-4 more semesters and I would have it out the way. And the issue is not whether Ad nurses can do their jobs as well as BSN prepared nurses, we do it every day, it is about taking an important step towards becoming a more respected profession. That is one of the reasons I went back and enrolled in a RN/BSN program.
    ==========================================
    Somehow, an issue like this always ends up with non-degree
    RNs taking the defensive.
    To reiterate ad nauseum: NOONE is saying ADNs are not real nurses...but get real. In the real world when you sit down with other healthcare professionals to discuss healthcare issues, credibility counts bigtime. Standardizing our education at a university level will be a big step forward.

    As to NCLEX: this is an entry exam, not an expert exam.
    I thought there were studies looking at the quality of care provided by degree nurses versus non-degree holders at 1 year postgraduation, and the degree nurses were found to provide more holistic, individualized care. SuzyK??
  8. by   globalRN
    Originally posted by globalRN
    ==========================================
    Somehow, an issue like this always ends up with non-degree
    RNs taking the defensive.
    To reiterate ad nauseum: NOONE is saying ADNs are not real nurses...but get real. In the real world when you sit down with other healthcare professionals to discuss healthcare issues, credibility counts bigtime. Standardizing our education at a university level will be a big step forward.

    As to NCLEX: this is an entry exam, not an expert exam.
    I thought there were studies looking at the quality of care provided by degree nurses versus non-degree holders at 1 year postgraduation, and the degree nurses were found to provide more holistic, individualized care. SuzyK??
    Regarding unions: the AMA isn't technically a union but they are one helluva force and act like a union. Nurses need that same unity and collective voice in achieving what we want for nurses,
    nursing and our patients. If this thread is an example, we have a long way to go. You don't hear docs arguing about their medical preparation/specialties.
  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Mattigan, I withdrew my post if you noticed, so you need not have come back like that....I re-read what you, and several others who oppose my position have written because I seek to understand the issue better.. I find so many of your posts enlightening, those of you who take an opposing position. I strive to understand where each is coming from. However, I stand by all I have said earlier, and I don't believe it's a defensive matter in which I do this, as some have accused us "non-degree" RNs to do. It is well-thought position I take as a person who is actively pursing a higher degree of education herself. Maybe, re-reading all the posts here would do us all a bit of good to further our understanding how each side feels, rather than blathering and getting nasty. This is what is one of the major downfalls of nursing is, as we know. And it transcends educational levels as seen here in and in the numerous other threads dedicated to this hot issue.

    I AM still curious though. Those that propose an all BSN-RN work force, what is your proposed timeline and plan to make this a reality? And what do we do with diploma and ADN nurses at that point? I would love to hear what you have to say and my ears are WIDE open in a NON-defensive manner. Anyone?
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Oct 10, '02
  10. by   Q.
    Originally posted by globalRN
    Standardizing our education at a university level will be a big step forward.

    As to NCLEX: this is an entry exam, not an expert exam.
    I thought there were studies looking at the quality of care provided by degree nurses versus non-degree holders at 1 year postgraduation, and the degree nurses were found to provide more holistic, individualized care. SuzyK??
    Very good points above.

    As far as your reference to those studies, I believe I've heard results to that effect, but I can do a lit search and see what I come up with. I'd be curious to read the actual literature.

    SmilinBluEyes, was it you? I think rhetorically asked (paraphrasing here) "so, would you rather not have me, a very good nurse, NOT be one because I can't access the BSN programs?" In answer to your question..NO. But I highly doubt you became a nurse simply because it was the closest and most convenient schooling around you. If you really wanted to be a physician, you would have. If you really wanted to be a pianist and attend Juliard, you would have. At least that's what I believe.
    Last edit by Susy K on Oct 10, '02
  11. by   SmilingBluEyes
    yes it was me. And yes, I became a nurse out of a strong desire to do so. I would have much preferred to pursue a BSN but like I said ad nauseum, it was NOT feasible for my situation. And I am not alone in being a working mom who goes to school. Was it MY fault a program was 100 miles away? NO, being military, I did not have the luxury of moving closer to it w/o creating serious issues for my family.

    I still say, What is proposed here is not reasonable and til a do-able plan is made, I doubt it will happen w/o making the critical shortage of qualified RN's much worse.
  12. by   Mattigan
    Originally posted by deespoohbear
    I also feel that if you are a nursing manager over a certain department, your skills better be up to date with whatever area you manage. The staff you are managing will have more respect for you if you able to work along side of them, not just stand their and bark orders. It is hard to know what us people at the bottom of the rungs of the ladder are experiencing at the bedside if you aren't there once in awhile.
    Yep, I work the floor every day just like everybody else around here. Am on 24/7 call for ER and NICU , also.I dropped out of the MSN program before I finished my thesis and have no plans to complete it - but I am grateful for the extra knowledge it gave me. I refused to have BSN put after RN on my name badge. I don't think it's all that special. What's the difference between a profession and a job? How many other professions have less than a 4 year entry level (BS,BA whatever)?

    I work in rural OK. If we didn't have LPN's,ADN's, PCT's we wouldn't have staffing in hospitals or clinics. Change has to start somewhere- if there is to be change- I've heard the same old, whinny story since 1975. Why aren't we taken seriously as a profession- well we've all answered that.
  13. by   Q.
    SmilingBluEyes,

    I also believe that if we mandate a BS into professional practice, we WILL suffer a shortage or backlash. But I also think, just like anything else, it has to get worse before it gets better.

    I for one would prefer to grandfather in all existing RNs and start with the BS requirement with all new nursing students and schools, anyway. To me, that simply just makes sense.

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