gender as a qualification - page 2
I work as a L&D nurses and would love to hear others experiences, advice and opinions on males in this area. My patients love me and am told often by them that i am the best nurse they ever had. I... Read More
Jan 18, '02salmi: to carry your syllogism to its logical conclusion, you seem to be saying that only male nurses and male physicians should take care of male patients. Sorry, the numbers don't add up. There is no way that there are enough male RNs--or MDs, for that matter--in any given hospital to take care of all the male patients.
I note that your location is Oman. Would I be presumptous to wonder whether your objections are religious or cultural in nature?
Jan 18, '02And as to shared toilets, don't people of either gender usually use them alone? Of course, women always complain about men leaving the seat up!
Jan 18, '02Salmi you need to look at the numbers there is no way there is enough male nurses to care for only male patients so only females can care for female patients. This is not an attempt to change nature as you put it. If nature meant men and women to be totally seperated and never to interact. we would not need one of each gender to procreat. This must obviously be a cultural difference. Here things like this are considered discrimination. I work on other floors besides L&D. and they sometimes try the gender asignment thing, I find it very insulting. I have found over the years that my female patients really like me. I have been requested by many to be their nurse when they came on other days or times the were in the hospital. Men have a lot to offer nursing and should not be denied the chance to do what they like best. It only hurts nursing as a whole. And worst of all it hurts the patient.
THANKS EVERYBODY FOR WRITING, MARK
Jan 19, '02When I was being induced with my 2nd child, the CRNA was a guy who I had worked closely with and even oriented to ICU years before. He'd had a black (or bizarre) sense of humor when we worked together or socialized, and had often made crass comments and off-color jokes to many female nurses; so I was a little hesitant thinking he'd be there during the birth. But there was meconium in the amniotic fluid and I was rather busy with delivering at the time, so I didn't object. HE WAS SO COOL! He explained to my husband what was happening, took a very modest and sensitive picture of my husband cutting the cord, and then took my baby and checked her vocal cords and made sure she was okay. If that particular guy could be as caring and professional as that, I have no problems with other guys being in OB or L&D. He did so much better than the residents in the teaching hospital when I'd had my first child.
Jan 19, '02Originally posted by donmurray
And as to shared toilets, don't people of either gender usually use them alone? Of course, women always complain about men leaving the seat up!
As for the rest of the debate: I work L&D and we have male residents and male OB techs; frankly I welcome the mixed gender to provide a little diversity (did I say that?) in the workplace. We sometimes have patients who are of Middle Eastern descent who ask that no males care for them, and we are more than happy to honor that request, except under emergency situations of course.
Whoever is best qualified to do the job is who should be allowed to work there. Simple as that.
And Stargazer, LOVE your posts.
Jan 20, '02Salmi, this is for you: If you have been raised in a middle eastern culture where males and females are not respected in the same way as they are in a westernized culture, it is only natural for you to think the way you do about the "separation of men and women" in the nursing field. Now that you live in America, and you see how American life is, why do you choose to stay if you are so opposed to our lifestyle? Remember the saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." When Americans travel to countries of a different culture, we must adapt to that culture's way of life if we are to survive and be accepted there. When foreigners with beliefs different than the westernized world come into America, they too must adapt to our ways in order to survive. Commenting on our lifestyle in America is one thing, but condemning it to the point of things needing to be "your culture's way or no way" is not sound and mature reasoning on your part.
Instead of arguing about how this or that should be one way or another, why not share with us more about your culture and way of life, and why you are so adamant about life remaining the same for you when you no longer live in a country that supports that viewpoint. I am not condemning you, Salmi, but seeking to gain a better understanding of your viewpoints and why you choose to live in a country that is so different than the way you were raised to believe. Please....share more with us about this.
"Don't talk unless you can improve the silence."-- Laurence Coughlin
Jan 21, '02Renee, He's posting from Oman, one of the Gulf States near Kuwait. As to "Do as the Romans do" A big problem with Americans abroad is that you export your culture with you! Mc Donalds, Disney, Burger King, Gap, Coca Cola, Pepsi, etc. etc. etc.
ps. That's just in the main street of my small town in England!
Jan 21, '02Yeah, I noticed the interesting assumption that a person posting on an American site is necessarily living in America... Hmm...
Salmi, your comments are appreciated, despite being different to the American/Western norm, and different to my own beliefs. Thank you for adding spice to the discussion.
I personally would be outraged if I heard that any of my male nurse friends were denied even the right to apply for a job in L&D or OB/GYN as it appears Mark was. Australian nursing is quite unionised, so the hospital would probably be firmly encouraged to at least interview the applicant.
I want nurses who care about their job and their patients in the L&D when I'm having mine. I've got a sneaky suspicion that I will be too busy to care whether the nurse has the same anatomy as me. If the nurse isn't self-conscious, I doubt that my own embarassment would last long in the post-partum phase. The training is the same, and a male usually enters nursing because he WANTS to, not because he couldn't think of anything else to do (as several of my female classmates in undergrad did). This alone suggests that they have an edge on many nurses I've worked with.
P.S. I don't believe in shared toilets, either. Men may be able to nurse in L&D or anywhere else they want, but they can't get all their pee in the bowl...
Last edit by bungies on Jan 21, '02
Jan 21, '02I have been reading posts to this thread for about a week. Several of the posts refer to hiring the best qualified person to work in the position. This statement, at it's face value" sounds noble and worthy. It does not address the fact that in order to become experienced one needs to become employed before they can gain the experience to become "the best qualified individual" to perform the job!
I have experienced this "catch 22" numerous times in my nursing job searches. Every employer wants "the best and the brightest" and "the most experienced" to fill an "open position." I find it very hard to overcome the fact that I do not have the 1+ years experience in the particular specialty needed to be considered as a contending candidate for a position.
How do I become a "highly qualified, best and brightest, experienced candidate" when I am not given the opportunity to be trained. How can I work in the field without being hired?
Being a "Male nurse" seems to have it's advantages to some. I have never seen any of these alleged advantages. Most of the time I find myself in competition with "female nurses" who have been trained by a facility in a specialty like OB.
So when the staffing company calls me to ask what my specialty is I tell them that I am a Licensed, Professional, Registered Nurse ( that is what my state issued license to "pratice nursing" says); I have worked in Psyc, Med Surg, Tele, Stepdown, UR, Endo, PACU, OR, and other areas. So what is my specialty?
As for the rest room contraversey, I believe all places where a toilet is avaliable should allow either sex into the first avaliable stall. I find it quite strange that public places find it so necessary to denote a gender at the entrance to a rest room.
When a person has to answer the call of nature, or a nurse has the time to go, there should be no need to traverse any distance farther than the first avaliable bowl.
Returning to the original question of this post - It is my belief that a "male nurse" (aka Nurse), should be allowed to, able to, encouraged to, trained to and accepted in any and all positions that require a "RN" to perform them.
If you do not share my view then try substituting the word black ( or african american as some prefer to be called) or Jewish, or Christian, or Muslem, or the word female before as the quantifier. Be sure to make the quantifying excluder applicable to yourself. Then perhaps you can see just how unfair the pratice of sexual discrimination in Nursing is to men and " Male Nurses."
Jan 21, '02Originally posted by bungies
Yeah, I noticed the interesting assumption that a person posting on an American site is necessarily living in America... Hmm...
I can only speak for myself, and obviously Stargazer who noticed that the poster was from Oman, but I don't assume that everyone is from America because this is an American site. That's like assuming everyone is from Minnesota because that is where the site administrator lives.
Jan 21, '02hi guys, i had my bsn in usa but i'm in my country now.
i don't know how to explain it. if i will explain, "why males should not work in delivery areas" without considering my culture and islamic teachings, then i will have to follow the jungle rule to explain it. i'm sure that the disadvantages of allowing male nurses to work in delivery areas will be far more than the advantages even if we used the jungle rule.
we gave the woman all rights. the qu'ran states that god has endowed human beings with dignity. this dignity extends to us all, regardless of race, status, or gender. woman's dignity is not to expose her body to any other male except her husband. the muslim women should not set alone with any male stranger. the people who are not considered strangers to the women are only husband, brother, father, son and uncle. no need to explain the reason for that just think about it and you will come to know. "to avoid.........................
mr./ms. renee williams, if you are "really" interested to know about my religion(culture) click on the link below which contains articles written by american. http://www.islamfortoday.com/michaelwolfe.htm
i'm not the only one who voted against, where is the other person come on dude help me.... :d
salmiLast edit by salmi on Feb 1, '02
Jan 21, '02Hi Salmi:
I see your point as I've had experience with Muslims who do not allow any males in the room during her stay; be it a tech, housekeeper, resident or physician. We gladly honor that request - except in emergencies and even under those circumstances, the patients have suffered an emotional trauma, if you will, as a result. The patient had a hard time facing her husband and family knowing a male OB/GYN treated her - even if it meant saving the life of her and her fetus.
As Americans, we don't understand it but we honor it as much as possible. But I think NOT allowing males to work in that field is taking it a bit far. As long as there are females that a patient can request, what is the difference? But again, it is this principle that America was founded on: freedom.