Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's

[kasey14546]

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings, or by experience.

I think that just as there is a difference in the tasks an RN and LPN can preform, there should also be a difference in what a two year RN can do, in comparison to a RN with a BSN. The 2 year RN should not be in leadeership or management positions since they have not been trained in accredeited colleges for this skill. The BSN has. I'm sure the 2 yers RN's will disagree with me, and 2 years ago I would have disagreed also. However, after being able to compare the two from personal experience, I feel the BSN is more educated for leadership and management. The BSN nurse should be paid more, and should be the starting educational level for these positions.

Most professions have at least a 4 year degree. Nurses need to improve their educational standing to be equal with other professional fields.

[essarge]

It was stated that after a year, ADN and BSN nurses were equal in their skills. OK, then why not consider this and after that year make the salary difference (not a dollar something an hour) for the added years of education. Perhaps this is a way to not only get skilled nurses, but persuade them to get more education. I agree that ADN nurses have more hands on clinical time than BSN and for that I applaud them. That being said however, it could also be said that BSN nurses have a better handle on how to manage time, people, and staffing through their classes in leadership etc. So it's a two edged sword no matter which way you look at it.

deespoohbear, our nurse managers spend time "auditing" charts because of JACHO and making sure that the patients are getting the care they deserve. If something is not correctly done it can cause many problems from a write up and fine from JACHO to a lawsuit from a patient. So I see it as them doing the job that they are supposed to do.

[Stargazer]

I haven't made any secret of the fact that I would like to see the BSN become the minimum entry level for nurses, simply to provide some uniformity and consistency, to stop this crappy infighting, and to put us on a level with all the other health-related professions which have, or are moving towards, making this the standard in their professions, including pharmacists, registered dieticians, physical therapists and so on.

That said, in the short term, (once a BSN has had, say, a year of experience) s/he might have a slight advantage in a leadership position. Give it another 5 years, and all other things being equal, I'm not sure there would be much difference between the BSN and ADN charge nurse or manager.

My boss is a manager essentially doing a director's job. She has been in management most of the last 15 - 2- years of her career. She is smart, well-traveled, and through the various positions she's held in the last 20 years, has easily the lifetime experience equivalent of a master's degree. She is an expert in her field, has been published, interviewed, and is frequently asked to give presentations all over the world. She has an ADN.

Originally posted by deespoohbear

I think a lot of times BSN's and higher in management forget what it is like at the bedside and start coming up with all kinds of paperwork and stuff for us lowly bedside nurses to do in our "spare time." My feeling is that EVERY nurse manager should have to "work in the trenches" to make sure they keep a grip on the real issues of nursing, such as having adequate equipment and staff to properly care for your patient, instead of sticking themselves in their office with their computers....want to know what my nurse manager's latest kick is? If we have made the proper referrals to social services, therapy, and dietary when a patient is admitted. She is actually auditing charts for this. Too much time on someone's hands if you ask me....

Personally, I'd like to see the opposite. I know that the nurses under my supervision bytch about the amount of paperwork they have to do, and since I'm usually the author, I'm sure they think I just sit around thinking up new ways to torture them. I swear, I honestly have more fun and productive things I'd rather be doing with my time. Really.

What they don't seem to understand, even after I tell them, is that new paperwork is always in response to a problem or deficiency: internal company audits, JCAHO inspections, a lawsuit, multiple cases where we were at RISK for a lawsuit due to consistently poor documentation; changes in requirements of gov't agencies. There's always a reason. Really.

One of our staff nurses recently spent 3 days in our office, having flown in from one of our satellite clinics for a deposition. She couldn't believe the volume of phone calls, email, traffic in and out of our offices, and time-consuming crises we had to deal with. It was a real eye-opener for her.

Deespoohbear, the referral thing sounds like it's in response to an audit. A new JCAHO requirement, or an internal audit which pinpointed a problem? I honestly doubt your manager's auditing charts 'cause it's just so much darn fun.

[Ortho_RN]

Heck there is only like .25cents/hr difference between BSN and ADN nurses here... And I honestly don't think it should be more... The funny thing is, when BSN nurses leave the floor and go into Management type positions, why do they think they should make more money than the nurses on the floor (whether BSN or ADN) are the ones who are keeping patients alive and making them better? Hmmmmmmmm... I think all have an important job, someone has to do the office/paperwork part.. So I guess better it be a nurse than some Joe-Schmoe off the street... But I do agree that eventually they should make all programs BSN, so there would be an end to all of this, and then EVERYONE will have the business/bedside knowledge...

[Stargazer]

The funny thing is, when BSN nurses leave the floor and go into Management type positions, why do they think they should make more money than the nurses on the floor (whether BSN or ADN) are the ones who are keeping patients alive and making them better? Hmmmmmmmm...

Why do you think there is a charge nurse differential? (Usually.) As an ICU nurse, I was responsible for the well-being of 1 or 2 critically ill patients. As a charge nurse, I was responsible for overseeing the care of a dozen critically ill patients and for staffing that unit.

In my current position, I am responsible for overseeing the care given by over 800 MDs and RNs, and ensuring that we are in compliance with a dozen or so national and international regulations, laws and government agencies. You don't see a higher level of responsibility there?

[Ortho_RN]

Stargazer.. Are all the management positions like yours?.. If they are then I will retract my statement... As far as the charge nurse differential, it is .15cents/hr here, not worth it for the added responsibility..

[l.rae]

Originally posted by essarge

. I agree that ADN nurses have more hands on clinical time than BSN and for that I applaud them. That being said however, it could also be said that BSN nurses have a better handle on how to manage time, people, and staffing through their classes in leadership etc. So it's a two edged sword no matter which way you look at it.

grrrrrr:( Time management skills are NOT learned in class....they are aquired in practice. ANy new grad BSN that wants to take on a seasoned nurse, be it LPN, ADN or BSN in the area of time management needs to get a clue. If a BSN EVER implied to me she had better time management skills soley r/t her degree l would be hard pressed to what to do first, stomp her azz or laugh in her niave face;) .......however, being a whiz at multitasking, l'd find time to do both, maybe simeltaneously......LR:rolleyes:

[Stargazer]

nurs2b, all management positions are like mine in that they take the level of responsibility at the bedside (which is considerable) and multiply it exponentially. The numbers will vary, but the principle is the same.

You acknowledge that the charge nurse has more responsibility, so much so that .15/hour doesn't begin to compensate (and that is a REALLY lame differential; I used to get $1.50/hr more and it still wasn't worth it!). The charge nurse is responsible for the care and staffing for that shift. Now multiply that by X number of charge nurses, staff nurses and other licensed/non-licensed personnel on ALL the shifts, perhaps in multiple units, and throw in budget management, politics, pressure from senior administration, compliance with gov't regulatory agencies, etc. etc. and you start to get an idea. Just because it's "paperwork" doesn't mean it's a cakewalk. :)

[Stargazer]

Gotta agree with l. rae on the time management thing too. That only comes with practice. I was sloooowww whenever I was doing a new skill.

[Ortho_RN]

Ok.. Stargazer.. I completely see your point :)

[deespoohbear]

Originally posted by l.rae

grrrrrr:( Time management skills are NOT learned in class....they are aquired in practice. ANy new grad BSN that wants to take on a seasoned nurse, be it LPN, ADN or BSN in the area of time management needs to get a clue. If a BSN EVER implied to me she had better time management skills soley r/t her degree l would be hard pressed to what to do first, stomp her azz or laugh in her niave face;) .......however, being a whiz at multitasking, l'd find time to do both, maybe simeltaneously......LR:rolleyes:

Well stated!!!

[almondhoney]

I'm pretty sure that the BScN is the minimum requirement to enter the field (in Canada), regardless if you want to go into management or not. (Excluding the PRN's of course)

Originally posted by MEtheBabiesRN

Don't you need a BSN in order to be management where you are? Here in Alberta you do. You also get paid more as a BSN however it's not that much. It's called education allowance and is $1.25/hour. It would take years before you were reimbursed for the educational costs. RNs do have to take charge on their units if they have a fulltime or parttime position but if you are casual (prn) you don't have to.

[fab4fan]

For mgmt., yes, but for direct care, no.

I worked with BSN's in different areas...when there was a crisis, they ran around like the Keystone Cops...it was the diploma nurses that knew what the heck to do.

This is a debate as old as the ages, but I agree, if someone goes into the workforce with this "Nanny nanny boo boo, I have a BSN and you don't" be prepared to have a very rocky road ahead.