BSN vs. ADN

Doey, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2000

After all this time I can't believe we're still arguing over this stuff. The degree makes no difference to what type of nurse a person will make, that depends on the person themselves. But, after having said that, I do believe there should be only one entry level into nursing, and that should be the BSN. What other profession (ie; teachers, lawyers,MD's, DO's etc) have more than one way to enter the profession? It doesn't mean that there will be better nurses out there. Just better prepared for advancement, if they choose, or for other types of job opportunities. In order to command the respect we deserve, and the salary that goes with it, we need to show the public as well as others that nursing isn't just all the nice nice stuff, fluff your pillow, give you ice water, change a bed, give a bedpan, wash a butt. All those things are definitely part of what nurses do and are necessary and I would never stop doing them or would I want anyon else to. But people have to know that those things are just a PART of what nurses do. Everyone knows we do that stuff. We've been portrayed that way by the media forever. But what about the rest of what we do? Physical assessments, interpreting ABG's, lab work, diagnostic tests, (and knowing what to do with what we interpreted), checking the medications pts. are on, side effects, knowing when to try something on are own and when to call the MD.

How we coordinate pt. care, how we delgate, how we RUN the hospital on off shifts, how we decide a pt. needs to be intubated, and we just see to it that it gets done. All these things and more are involved in what we do and why we should demand commensurate salaties. You don't here physicians arguing over who's better, the DO or MD. There are "bad apples" in every profession, and that includes nursing. Many of the public as well as other professions think that you go to nursing school only for a couple of years because there isn't that much to know or learn, after all you just follow the Dr's orders, fluff a few pillows and that's it. I know and all of you know that's not true, but that's what's thought. So, am I saying that in order to make us a profession in the eyes of everyone else that we need to make the BSN the only entry level into nursing? Yes. Am I saying that we need the BSN to command more money and respect and make nursing more attractive to high school students? Yes. Am I saying that if the BSN is the only entrance into nursing the energy we waste by arguing over who is the "better" nurse (and devote that energy and anger to making the profession more cohesive), will finally end? yes. Am I saying it's fair, no. But that's the way it is. We need to function in this world as a true profession, showing ALL the things we do and are responsible for. I think if the majority of nurses were men, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It would have already been done a long time ago. This is just another example of how nurses do not stick together and support one another. How can we expect management or the public to take us seriously when we're still arguing over who the better nurse is?

John_G · Sep 19, 2000

Hello all, new to this forum but not to nursing. Been working the mean streets of the floor for 5 years now. Just got into the ICU and absolutely love it!! I've worked side by side with BSN's some good and some not so good. The same with ADN's and diploma nurses and LPN's. If you took a new graduate BSN, ADN, and Diploma nurse and put them in a room and evaluated them performing a clinical task, which would be able to be determined: who had the most experience or who had the highest level of education? I think all nurses should be hired in at the same rate of pay and let their job performance followed by education be the basis for higher raises, promotions etc. I for one am returning to school to get my BSN, not because I think it will make me a better nurse but because it is a requirment to get into CRNA school. As far as a nurse is a nurse is a nurse.... I find this to be the warcry of nurses I hate following because I spend more time cleaning up after them than I do taking care of my patient.

B.Ashcroft · Sep 19, 2000

can someone briefly explain the difference between the degrees.

Here the choices are to graduate as an R.N. with a diploma from a community college which is usually a 2 -21/2 years study programme or a BScN which is a four year science programme from a university. All write the same licencing exam and pay is by seniority in years of service/experience. Advance degrees or certificates usually mean nothing in the way of pay.

D.Johnson · Sep 20, 2000

No way! Absolutely not! Pay based on experience, yes; competence, yes; knowledge of procedures/polocies, yes;patient responses/ evaluations, maybe;

schooling, no way!

babs_rn · Sep 21, 2000

Originally posted by jgnc:
Just for the record - your statement "clearly LPNs should not be paid the same..." In MANY areas of nursing, they DO do the same job! Secondly, your whole point was that all RNs are equivalent so they should all be paid the same, yet there are differences in education. How do you justify your "less education" quote as it applies to LPNs? There IS a difference between RN levels of education!

LPNs often perform the same tasks as RNs but are not put in positions of charge or responsibility other than that which are being taken over by nursing techs these days. It is not legal for LPNs to have the same kind of responsibility for patient care that RNs have. An LPN must always be supervised by an RN and is not trained in assessment the same as an RN. The only difference between the BSN and ADN programs in my state is the amount of management theory that goes into the BSN program and the extra history classes. In a staff nurse position, that doesn't mean a THING.

Babs

babs_rn · Sep 21, 2000

Just to lighten it up a little bit, something a FNP told me once (and she had lots of other titles/degrees but refused to flaunt them):

BSN = BullShit Nurse

MSN = More of the Same

PhD = Piled High and Deep

Smile!

Babs

lactationrn · Jun 26, 2001

I am currently an ADN and am going back inseptember for my bachelors degree, but not exactly in nursing. Why should I? there is no difference inpay, and unless I want to go into middle management, which you pretty much need a MSN for now adays anyway, what would be the advantage of BSN if I didnt start out with one? I eill be going back for my BLC (Bachelors in Lactation consulting) that is where my interst lies and it is pertenent to my practice. I dotn think a BSN is for everyone, and I dont think it shouel be a requirement. ADN's have miore hands on clinical experience, which is what a nurse needs! :cool:

nurse r · Jun 26, 2001

Originally posted by Angel Nurse
I think nurses who have the BS as opposed to just an AS should get payed more. Even If you have both nurses doing the same job, the BS nurse should be payed more. The BS nurse took the time and payed the money to receive that BS degree. A BS nurse has gained more knowledge through that education and he/she should be recognized for that.

to angel nurse-

JUST an AS? I worked extremely hard for "just an AS" and am offended by your comments. It took me a total of three years, and ALOT of heart and soul and my hard-earned money to become an RN, and I deserve just as much recognition and respect for that as someone with a BS. :mad:

PhantomRN · Jun 26, 2001

You are not being put down because you are choosing nursing. They are giving you grief because you already have a BA and an Ms and you are going back to get an AS. Its like going backward.

I have my BS and have went back to school. I was going to get a AS in another field but every counselor I spoke to encouraged me to get my masters. Their rationale was to keep moving upward.

As for this topic question. I do think there should be a diff for a BSN. We should get paid for the extra education, not because I think we are better but we did invest extra time. I have worked at one hospital that did give a diff for education.

I seen a post awhile about someone getting a BS in health science. what type of job culd one get with that degree?

beaniweeniRN · Jun 27, 2001

I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine who has his BSN along with a Masters in History. We were speaking of how much clinical time an ADN recieved vs. the BSN. He spoke of having to take a semester of nursing theory which he thought was an entire waste. My response was this. If one wants to know the theory behind the functioning of the heart and care of the patient suffering from some cardiac dysfuncyion, give me an hour with the BSN and a Swan Ganz catheter and I'll explain in more concrete terms the function of the heart and WHY we do what we do for that patient than anything they would have learned in that semester of theory.We both agreed that the ADN received more clinical work than the BSN.

I ,as you may have guessd, have an ADN, But have been a Head Nurse for several years as well as a DON. All without a BSN. Where I work, there is no differential for the nurse who has their BSN which is sad becuase they did stay in the program longer. But as to whether they make "better" nurses, the jury's still out on that one. It's not what you know but how you apply it that makes you a good nurse. I have no plans to pursue a BS in nursing but would, instead, like to do something that is intelectually stimulating to me like get a Masters in American history. This of course would never feed my family but would be more information to stuff in my small head, but I could explain a lot of our history both nursing and general to my kids.

The argument as to whether a BSN is better than an ADN is an old one and it's like beating a dead horse. Does it really matter? Since we both take the same boards, have the same job description, etc. It's something that needs to be let go because to me it's become an ego thing, and that is one less thing we need to be arguing about between ourselves, especially when there are so few of us to go around. :cool:

mikemw · Jun 27, 2001

This is one of those never ending stories and there may not even be a right anaswer. I have worked with Diploma, ADN, BSN, and MSN nurses in the emergency room and it is not noticable what there level of education was.

For those who believe that a BSN is only math and english need to take another look at the curriculum. Most include additional nursing theroy, epidemiology, and pharmacology beyond the ADN curriculum.

A comment on logic of the argument that if we all work on the same unit doing the same job then we should all get the say pay. If that arguement applies to education level then it should also apply to experience. If a nurse with 1 year of expererience is doing the same job and has the same position and same level of care as a nurse with 25 years experience then both should get paid the same. Most of us realize this is not true, the more experienced nurses get more pay.

Experience and education should both be rewarded. Why do we obtain more certifications, higher degrees? Isn't it so we can provide better care for our patients. Some of us persuing higher degrees are not looking for mangement jobs but a better understanding of what our patients need and what interventions are the most prudent based on that particular patient and there needs.

Many nurses are not satisfified with only implementing the docs orders and letting the doc worry about why a particular treatment is being done and and what other options are available to help our patient. Nurses who make the effort to gain more knowledge or have a greater experience to provide informed and knowledgable care for their patients should be rewarded.

Heather Plate · Jun 28, 2001

I HAVE BEEN A NURSE FOR 15+ YEARS. I AM A ADN. WHEN I TOOK MY BOARDS I SAT AT A TABLE WITH 3 OTHER POTENTIAL NURSES. 2 ADN'S, 1 DIPLOMA AND 1 BSN. THERE WAS NOTHING ON THE TEST THAT SEPARATED US INTO 3 DIFFERENT CATAGORIES. WHEN ALL WAS SAID AND DONE WE ALL WORE R.N. BEHIND OUR NAMES. I FELT THAT IN THAT INSTANCE THE ADN AND DIPLOMA NURSES HAD TO LEARN THE SAME AMOUNT NURSING EDUCATION AS THE BSN IN ORDER TO PASS BOARDS BUT IN 1-2 YEARS LESS TIME. I THINK THAT FIRST WE SHOULD LOOK AT EXPERIENCE WHEN IT COMES TO PAY INCREASES. IF THE JOB REQUIRES THAT YOU HAVE A BSN TO FILL IT THEN YES YOU SHOULD BE PAID ACCORDINGLY BUT IF IT JUST SAYS R.N. THEN ALL FACTORS SHOULD BE LOOKED AT WITH EXPERIENCE BEING FIRST. I AGREE , WHEN I AM WORKING ALONG SIDE OF ANOTHER NURSE I DO NOT LOOK AT THE ADN, DIPLOMA OR BSN... ALL I KNOW IS THAT I FEEL A NURSE IS A NURSE. WE ARE ALL EQUAL AND NEED TO STAND TOGETHER AND NOT LET INITALS BEGIN TO SEPARATE US.. THAT IS JUST MY OPINION FOR WHAT ITS WORTH.