At what point are employers asking TMI?

Roy Fokker, BSN, RN · Jul 4, 2011

At the risk of continuing a tangential argument:

Huh? the census form wanted to know how many people lived in your house

And if it'd stopped right there, I might have been ok with it.

how they were related to one another, their race, and their age. That was it. It did not ask anything else, so how is that invasive?

A. Don't know what forms you filled out - mine asked a lot more than just that.

B. Let's assume for argument's sake that the census form only asked the items you listed. Per the Constitution, the Census is a means of enumerating the population of a jurisdiction to determine representation in Congress and taxation[Article 1, Section 2, clause 3]. Nothing more.

C. "how they were related to one another" - why does the Government need to know that?

"their race" - why does the Government need to know that?

"their age" - why does the Government need to know that?

Again - you have the "number of people living at this address". There's your 'headcount' ... your 'census'. Why all the additional data?

"Privacy" is kinda sorta a 'big thing' with many people.

You're welcome to trust the government. I don't.

Life kinda teaches you that... IMHO.

so how is that invasive?

Do you reveal private details about your home and family to random strangers? Do you find it rude and inappropriate if random strangers pester you about your private life, what race your children are and who you "shack up with"?

To appropriate a line I was fed all the time when I was in the Army: It's on a "need to know basis" and random strangers, including the blessed Government - don't need to know.

Call me "overly sensitive" or even "paranoid". It's ok. I've been called worse.

Personally, I call it "being prudent".

cheers,

kcmylorn · Jul 4, 2011

To the original poster- It is my belief that that intrusive of a medical Hx for employment reasons is in violation of the HIPPA Law. and yes, any medical problem you report will be used against you. That is malicious intent- hiring or firing . A chronic disease such as asthma will be viewed and weighted as how much time off will this new hire be taking when her asthma flairs up, or a sickle cell pt- how much time off will this new hire be taking when an exposure triggers the sickle cell dz and for how long, hospitizations?? The cost of medication to maintain a state of health.The prescription plan costs, the health insurance costs. There is no such person as medically perfect employee. Just for poops and giggles- send a copy of the pre employment physical form to the DHS.

Some people have perpetuated this evolution into an invasion of one's privacy and the nothing is sacred line of thinking. :twocents:

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jul 4, 2011

I invoke Godwin's Law. You lose the debate by default.

I get the Godwin law thing I really do. But in the end it is ONE man's opinion and you know what they say about opinion's...........Everybody's got one!

If you haven't experienced the faux paux of becoming ill with a long term disease in the medical field and being discriminated against and have no recourse because of these little "healthcare questionares"........then I have to say I hope you never do........because I have and I have been discriminated against (of course they are too intelligent that to say...."Oh you have MS we can't hire you"......but to know your diagnosis by the meds you are on that you can't hide because of the drug screen shocked me :eek: now you aren't a good fit and they are seeking other canidates...... I too never believed that a hospital would do that or that it would be legal.....and then it happened to me.....now it just makes me horribly sad. :crying2:

I sincerely believe that these questions are asked because they are weeding out employees that may or may not cost them money in the long run on health care whjich IS developing the "perfectly healthy" workforce. Employers telling you what to do and when to do it. That you can't smoke not even in your own home becasue they are "promoting health" that testing for Tobacco is the same as testing for cocaine........that you can't say your boss was a jerk today or you had a really bad because a co-worker ratted you out or the HR rep stalks social media to make sure you can't think for your self or have a private life or opinion. Yea, Yea I get it.......social media, public forum. So was the local watering hole when I walked in all dressed in white telling everyone at the bar what a bad night i had or theat my boss is a donkey butt.

The Hitler reference is with first hand accounts of Hitler building a super race by weeding out the ill, infirm, the wrong eye or hair color to the extreme of attempting to wipe out an entire race. As experienced by my family who were not Jews, but were not blonde hair blue eye Hitler youth being tattoed and place in enforced work camps away from family and friends in their young teens. To me this questioning in this depth is a slippery slope developing a policy of exclusion so that only the young and beautiful and healthy have jobs and work all the while discuiseing it being for our benifit and the promotion of health........So did Hitler......how do you think he got so powerful....he told a starving people they will work, prosper and have food....that he cared. As one family member puts it..."He wasn't so bad until he went crazy:uhoh3:"

This is extreme and intrusive and discriminatory. A wolf in sheeps clothing is still a wolf.......to want to promote "my private health" at the expense of my privacy is a violation of my rights. It maybe legal but it isn't moral....the dilemma. For a healthy person it's no big deal.....make the sick one's go else where it doesn't effect you....yet.

Slippery slope.........very sad.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jul 4, 2011

She is supposed to ask those questions. It is her business because it is her responsibility to get that information as part of a health history and to define risk stratification; it is good practice. Sheesh.
And then people get po'd b/c "that stupid NP didn't even ASK me if I was using BC....." Patients are stupid, even when they are nurses.

It would be appropriate to ask if the NP was her PCP.....not the pre-employment exam.

linearthinker, DNP, RN · Jul 4, 2011

It would be appropriate to ask if the NP was her PCP.....not the pre-employment exam.

It is necessary part of any complete physical exam, hence the word complete. If employer requires a CPE, well there you have it.

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kcmylorn · Jul 4, 2011

Esme12- I'm in total agreement with you for all that you so eloquently posted. I see the exact hand writing on the wall too. My parents were alive during WWII and while did not live in Europe, they were still aware of what was happening. I have close friends whose mother fled Nazi Germany. Her mom, now in her 80's was a young school age child in Germany in grammer school. She tells of how the Nazi's would in the middle of the night take the jewish school children off, those children would not be in class the next day- no explaination given. Understanding those demented beliefs- this quest for perfect employees is indeed a slippery and dangerous slope. With the unemployment rate so high, it makes no common sense why employers are going to this extreme in their hiring practices. I toocan understand and agree with the illegal drug abuse and drug testing for those drugs but beyond that- this is surely an invasion of privacy, blatant discrimination and a violation of this country's civil rights. Guess some of the posters on these boards just don't have parents old enough to tell the stories of that period of time- atrocities. Theyhave no knowledge base to pull from and make sound judgements. As has been said- the world must never forget- the whole point of the Holocast Museum maybe that should be on some of these "professionals" agenda to visit and learn something about basic human rights and dignity and stop excusing this perverted behavior for business.

Thank you for your post, I hope you are well.

kcmylorn · Jul 4, 2011

I might add- that in the year 2011 the tactics are different- they are more COVERT than they were back in the 1930-40's which were more OVERT, In the 30's and 40's people were physically attacked, grabbed, pulled, pushed, beaten,shot. Today those methods are called assault and battery. To get around the law today(but the goal is still the same- exclusion, discrimination- medical condition, age, race,religion etc) it takes the form of hiring practices- employment vs unemployment. Employment you eat, unemployment- you starve to death. It's still getting rid of "undesirables the less than perfect"

I have thrown this out there many times on this board- if no employment- where do people live(on the streets??, in homeless shelters) where do they eat(garbage cans out in the back alleys of restaurants, soup kitchens) medical care- charity care or just don't go until they are forced to seek care and then very expensive medical care. More money drain. This whole corporate engineered business philosophy will fall apart at some point. There's no way a nation can sustain this flood of unemployment. The middle class and lower economic class all out in the street- that's a whole lot of people homeless and unemployed.

I wonder if any of these employers ever thought of the valuable teaching tool some of the nurses with these chronic dz's might be to their patients- a nurse with asthma hired on a pulmonary unit teaching a pt with asthma, a nurse with HIV hired on a med/surg unit teaching a pt with HIV, a nurse with MS hired on a neuro unit teaching a pt with MS. Of course not- too busy consumed with profit margins.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jul 4, 2011

I might add- that in the year 2011 the tactics are different- they are more COVERT than they were back in the 1930-40's which were more OVERT, In the 30's and 40's people were physically attacked, grabbed, pulled, pushed, beaten,shot. Today those methods are called assault and battery. To get around the law today(but the goal is still the same- exclusion, discrimination- medical condition, age, race,religion etc) it takes the form of hiring practices- employment vs unemployment. Employment you eat, unemployment- you starve to death. It's still getting rid of "undesirables the less than perfect"
I have thrown this out there many times on this board- if no employment- where do people live(on the streets??, in homeless shelters) where do they eat(garbage cans out in the back alleys of restaurants, soup kitchens) medical care- charity care or just don't go until they are forced to seek care and then very expensive medical care. More money drain. This whole corporate engineered business philosophy will fall apart at some point. There's no way a nation can sustain this flood of unemployment. The middle class and lower economic class all out in the street- that's a whole lot of people homeless and unemployed.
I wonder if any of these employers ever thought of the valuable teaching tool some of the nurses with these chronic dz's might be to their patients- a nurse with asthma hired on a pulmonary unit teaching a pt with asthma, a nurse with HIV hired on a med/surg unit teaching a pt with HIV, a nurse with MS hired on a neuro unit teaching a pt with MS. Of course not- too busy consumed with profit margins.

It's just not profit margins, it's insurance rates, disability payments and the fear they may have to pay me to not work with disability and God Forbid use any disease modifying drugs because frankly they just cost too much!

I have pitched my strenghts and accepted (most of the time:cool:) my weaknesses and sadly.....No takers. Oh well we are veering off topic.....the more desperate the job seeker the more "selective" the employer can be. I am still shocker however......it's legal...... :uhoh3:

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jul 4, 2011

Esme12- I'm in total agreement with you for all that you so eloquently posted. I see the exact hand writing on the wall too. My parents were alive during WWII and while did not live in Europe, they were still aware of what was happening. I have close friends whose mother fled Nazi Germany. Her mom, now in her 80's was a young school age child in Germany in grammer school. She tells of how the Nazi's would in the middle of the night take the jewish school children off, those children would not be in class the next day- no explaination given. Understanding those demented beliefs- this quest for perfect employees is indeed a slippery and dangerous slope. With the unemployment rate so high, it makes no common sense why employers are going to this extreme in their hiring practices. I toocan understand and agree with the illegal drug abuse and drug testing for those drugs but beyond that- this is surely an invasion of privacy, blatant discrimination and a violation of this country's civil rights. Guess some of the posters on these boards just don't have parents old enough to tell the stories of that period of time- atrocities. Theyhave no knowledge base to pull from and make sound judgements. As has been said- the world must never forget- the whole point of the Holocast Museum maybe that should be on some of these "professionals" agenda to visit and learn something about basic human rights and dignity and stop excusing this perverted behavior for business.
Thank you for your post, I hope you are well.

Waxing and wanning......great when I am on a couple set of wheels. :lol2: Thanks for asking....:redpinkhe:redpinkhe

with unemployment rate this high is exactly why employers can be choosey. Many workers applying for the same job......employers can pretty much do as they wish.......crazy........ :cool:

NurseSusanD · Jul 4, 2011

I think a medical personnel we tend to disclose TMI ourselves. I know I do! My husband constantly tells me I don't have to tell my employer certain things. But asking if you have "genital herpes"? How is that going to effect the way you do your job?! I can understand questions about back injuries, etc. Most of your medical history is not relevant to job performance. The number of surgeries I've had in the last 20 years does not have any bearing on my job performance now. I have not been asked about my past medical history on job applications excepting back injuries, drug and alcohol abuse, sometimes history of certain mental illnesses (bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and personality disorders). Maybe I've been lucky!! :nurse:

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Jul 4, 2011

I do see the risk in the information being used in ways it should not be. Add one to the list of thorns shoved under our fingernails by administration.

On the other hand, I have to admit, I do see its value. I was talking to a phlebotomist who had just finished working a double because there were so many call offs in her department. She was about to start AM lab draws on my wing, and she had just come from another wing in which the nurses were stressing the assignments for the next shift because there were so many call offs.

At my hospital, the phlebotomy dept. and the unit she had been on before mine are well known for being flooded with FLMA abusers. On the nursing unit, the nurses rarely get to work with the reg. ratios because, well......they have too many call offs, too many for the rest of the hospital to cover. The phleb. dept. also has its issues that are well known, many people work OT, others call off frequently, making for a very tired crew.

FLMA has its place and things it does right, but, too many people abuse it. Its a joke now, a shadow of what it was meant to be. And these extensive physicals by our employers is their answer to our co-workers who do so. If shortly after being hired, you go on FMLA, and the condition was not mentioned in your questionnaire......well, good luck in your future job search.

I gotta admit, being one of the reliable workers who shows up and suffers when people abuse FMLA, if these "TMI" physicals cut down on the number of co-workers around me who have it............good. Ask me all the questions you want.