Agency Nursing vs Staff Nursing - page 9

Hi All! I am preparing to do a debate in my Nursing 510 course about agency vs staff nursing. It is a formal debate complete with PowerPoint presentation, etc. My team and I will be arguing... Read More

  1. by   fadingyouth
    Nicely stated. Thank You.
    I have seen the no agency policy initiated time and time again and when all have threatened to walk out--the telephone rings . Suddenly agency is once again welcomed back with open arms.
    For the very young nurses may I tell you that this is nothing new. every 3 to 5 years some professional in a glass office decides they can do more with less.
    Does not happen!
  2. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by Susy K
    Sigh.
    Brownie - this was a debate. We really didn't have a choice NOT to advocate for agency or not. If we flat our refused well then, I guess we flunk the class as it was worth 40% of our grade.
    Susy K,

    My post was referring to the discussion of the study you presented...and YOUR past and possibly present feelings about the use of agency nurses.

    I understand that your initial start of this thread was for the purpose of gaining information for your debate. Which I think was a very relevent and from what you reported a much needed and engaging subject that needed to be explored. I feel from what you reported that this debate probably gave many a lot to think about.

    But it is the STUDY that I think bothers most here...and the fact that it was placed in this same thread!

    Many agency nurses had over the years heard over and over again....how we are the devil incarnate...and the true ills to what is wrong with nursing. The problem is...the same nurses who are staff somewhere...are many times agency somewhere else. So is it really a real indicator that agency nurses are a determent to pt care or that this study was bias in it's reporting??? I think many of us are just tired of being the scapegoats out there.

    We're either dumped on....or expected to do the impossible during our short time on a unit! Instead of making appropriate assignmemts based on a nurses abilities..."we" are expected to "perform"...on the basis of how well "we" are paid! So who really suffers here ...the pt??? the agency nurse...or the staff who will probably not get help from the same agency nurse...the next night they call for help???

    I went on a unit one night to find staff excited that I had come back! Why did I come back?? Because they HADN'T dumped on me...and they were helpful as they had learned that it doesn't "pay" to dump on us!!! Many times I and I'm sure other do also...have NO problem with returning to the same unit time and time again. So the theory that agency nurses are always working in unfamiliar setting isn't true. Many times the agency nurse is on a particular unit as much as staff is! As I have said before...I and I'm sure others have had hospital call to find out why they don't have you on their schedule and can you work for them!!

    This study is one that screams to be read with a "discerning eye"!..
  3. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    i just wanted to inform you that you were receiving quite a few rebuttals that sounded upset with the article you brought-up here on the bbs. most folks here haven't had the opportunity to read it or have it presented to them as your team obviously did during class; therefore, that's why the agency nurses & those who support their position oppose the findings of the article.

    and i'm quite sure that both sides had their articles readily available upon request...if folks wanted to read them...that least they should've been readily available for challenge!
    originally posted by susy k ...actually no. are you familiar with how debates are done? one side presents their argument, backed with research for 10 minutes. the other side presents their argument, backed with research, for 10 minutes. then the other side is offered a rebuttal period, and then the debate is over. in preparing for the debate, you research both sides, not just the side you are presenting. you do this to anticipate and refute the other side's arguments. for example - the pro side listed articles that said that higher use of agency means more staff and better patient care. we presented higher use of agency correlates with increased patient safety risks and does not equal better patient care. there is no presenting the article, circulating it and having everyone dissect it. the pro side, if having done their research, should have anticipated our using that argument and have prepared a rebuttal. and they did.

    that is precisely why we used it. we were trying to defend our position. that is what a debate is. i'm confused by your confusion in all this.
    try not to get up-set with me if i ask for clarification on a point that you've made...i just want to understand what it is that you're trying to say.
  4. by   Q.
    Originally posted by Brownms46

    This study is one that screams to be read with a "discerning eye"!..
    As do the articles that the pro side used to support THEM. I hear what you are saying, but bottom line, I think agency has it's place, for extended LOAs etc. But using them to staff the floors without addressing the real issues is not productive. In doing the project, we had found alot of real issues that staff nurses have with agency as well (those that I listed originally in like, post #4 or something like that)
    Like with the needle stick issue. We atributed that to and used that article to support our claim about the crappy orientations that agency nurses typically get. Heck, when my floor switched angiocath types, WE had more needlesticks!

    I guess I didn't think that sharing what I had found in my research WOULDN'T have a place in this thread, which is precisely what is was: Agency vs Staff. I asked for input from BOTH sides; if I hadn't presented the article, someone else might have.

    That is all, really.
  5. by   Q.
    originally posted by skm-nursiepooh
    i just wanted to inform you that you were receiving quite a few rebuttals that sounded upset with the article you brought-up here on the bbs. most folks here haven't had the opportunity to read it or have it presented to them as your team obviously did during class; therefore, that's why the agency nurses & those who support their position oppose the findings of the article.

    and i'm quite sure that both sides had their articles readily available upon request...if folks wanted to read them...that least they should've been readily available for challenge!
    try not to get up-set with me if i ask for clarification on a point that you've made...i just want to understand what it is that you're trying to say.
    moe i am not upset with you per se. just confused.
  6. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by Susy K


    As do the articles that the pro side used to support THEM. I hear what you are saying, but bottom line, I think agency has it's place, for extended LOAs etc. But using them to staff the floors without addressing the real issues is not productive. In doing the project, we had found alot of real issues that staff nurses have with agency as well (those that I listed originally in like, post #4 or something like that)
    Like with the needle stick issue. We atributed that to and used that article to support our claim about the crappy orientations that agency nurses typically get. Heck, when my floor switched angiocath types, WE had more needlesticks!

    I guess I didn't think that sharing what I had found in my research WOULDN'T have a place in this thread, which is precisely what is was: Agency vs Staff. I asked for input from BOTH sides; if I hadn't presented the article, someone else might have.

    That is all, really.
    Now when you put it in that light....(such as the use of different equipment...I can agree with you! But...I believe many hospitals have tried just about every trick in the book to hire on new staff. Just look at some of the unheard of sign on bonues and other perks offered to try and woo new staff!

    BUT...it is the treatment of staff that tends NOT to get them to stay around for long! I think there needs to be more training of management personnel and CN also! I feel WORKING conditions and feelings of being mistreated that are the true rationals for why staff don't stay! If you're being well treated somewhere....many times this can make up in part for a poor pay rate. So although the hospitals are pulling out every trick in the book to sway nurses to come on over....the poor treatment they receive after they do come over...is the reason why nurses leave...and then hospitals have no choice but to use agency nurses! Many times agency will put up with some abuse for the higher rate of pay...and the fact that they have control over when ard where they work. Many hospitals have went to self sceduling and for the most part this works...but when you have management that tells you...YOU"RE not important...and they can always replace you.....because you have dingbats from the business world ....or other settings where these kinds of threat work well in many cases. Yes the hospital many times are at fault for why they don't have and can't keep staff.

    But also it is the fault of the staff nurses themselves!!! Instead of being active in recruitment...they make sure NO ONE wants to come work with them...by their own attitudes! There are SOME nurses on units out there who have discovered you can get more with a little honey than with a lot of vinegar!!! If you have mistreated a nurse who came to your unit as an agency nurse....YOU MISSED an opportunity to possibly gain a new team member by YOUR OWN actions! The hospital can recruit all they want...but if they're met with cold shoulders.....rudeness, and an unhelpful staff....then that staff can't blame the hospital when they had to continue dealing with agency nurses to fill their staffing needs!!!

    Mangement is NOT the only enemy of the staff nurse....many times they are their own worst enemies! Just take the unit I'm on now...they just gained me...but in the process will be losing FIVE others!! WHY??? I"ll give you three guesses... and the first two don't count!
    Last edit by Brownms46 on Apr 22, '02
  7. by   Maula, RN
    Originally posted by Susy K

    I wasn't allowed to "rethink" my ideas as the assignment was to argue against agency nurse use. In doing so, have subsequently formed an opinion. Sorry if it doesn't jive with yours.



    You know it's hard for you to see the point here because you are not a nurse. It's takes a nurse's point of view not a student's. Your view is jaded by the idealisms of school and the security of your instructors. Come back to this a year after you've worked in the field and tell us whether or not your opinion of agency nurses have changed

    And nurses it makes no sense at all to try to force her to see our views. We are unique in that we have experienced and she has judged without experiencing. Common mistake many students make. We were all there once.
  8. by   Q.
    Originally posted by Maula, RN


    You know it's hard for you to see the point here because you are not a nurse. It's takes a nurse's point of view not a student's. Your view is jaded by the idealisms of school and the security of your instructors. Come back to this a year after you've worked in the field and tell us whether or not your opinion of agency nurses have changed

    And nurses it makes no sense at all to try to force her to see our views. We are unique in that we have experienced and she has judged without experiencing. Common mistake many students make. We were all there once.

    How's that saying go? Open mouth, insert foot? :chuckle

    Maula honey, I am a nurse. I have worked on a very understaffed floor for 4 years and am currently working in a clinic doing Internal Medicine triage on TOP OF THAT. I am a charge nurse on my floor and have made many decisions regarding calling agency or not to help us staff. Knowing that, I still feel the same. Agency is being used as a band-aid.

    I am a student yes, but a graduate student, thank you. :roll

    If you read my first post, you would see that this debate was for my Nursing 510 course. I do not know of any undergrad classes that reach the 500 level. But even if you didn't know that, if you read the entire thread, you would have seen my discussion to Brownie about how I personally assign patients to the staff, so on and so forth.

    Assuming and speaking before thinking. Common mistake alot of people make.
    Last edit by Susy K on Apr 22, '02
  9. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    ...play nice; obviously, maula, rn is relatively new here...we should welcome her better than that. she made a faux pas...give her some slack...heehee. :d :roll :blushkiss
  10. by   Q.
    Faux pas. I guess so.

    Still....it was quite funny.
  11. by   Brownms46
    Dang even I have to agree it was pretty funny...sorry Maula, RN...but it was
  12. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    how is your class going...have you finished it yet...or is it a full semester course??? do you have any other assignments for it??? what are some of your other courses that you're taking-up now or is this your only class for???

    i'm sure you guys did an excellent job at debating...as you're excellent at debating here!!! :chuckle

    i so enjoy bringing the best out of you...in a debate that is...lol.:blushkiss

    sometimes we must be passionate about our convections.
  13. by   Q.
    Actually Moe thanks for asking.
    Class seems to be okay. I have 2 classes this semester, the one I did the debate for (called Seminar in Emergent Heath Care) and the other course is Educational Psychology in a nutshell, called Foundations of Education in Nursing. I am actually, as we speak, writing a paper for the Fundies course due Thursday. I had to observe a class and show how the instructor utilized a theory of learning and techniques that are proven by the literature. I sat in one of my co-workers Asthma classes (we are both educators for this particular program in our clinic) and got the goods and am now making the translation to a paper (while surfing AllNurses of course!)

    The class I did the debate in, we all actually had to give a 2 hour lecture a couple weeks ago! My lecture was on Medical Education and the history, how it relates to nursing. After the debate, this week another student is giving a lecture, and then we have an articles review paper, where we find articles on a particular topic of interest and review the methodology and findings, etc. We have to have a minimum of 20 articles. So far I have ONE. Classes are done in about 3 weeks. These next 3 weeks are quite busy.

    Then this summer I am taking an on-line stats course.

    I do enjoy school and it seems to be going ok. I've learned quite a bit but it is still hard to get into the "mode." I used to be able to whip out a paper in about a couple hours but now it takes me a bit to get on a roll, so to speak.

    This internet thing can be frustrating. Sometimes while driving to work (I have a 40 minute drive) I sit and think of these threads and how so much I wish we were in person because I feel like the misunderstandings would be cut in HALF! But I am not one to give up easily - as you know.

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Agency Nursing vs Staff Nursing