A question for our international members...

Koalablue · Apr 12, 2003

Hi,

As far as I know here in Australia we have only two main nursing jobs - RN and EN (enrolled nurse) that *require* a piece of paper to go with it.

There are also certificates you can do as an AIN (assistant in nursing) like aged care and all that - but you can work as an AIN without certification, in some if not all states.

An EN does (I believe) about 12 months at a TAFE - tertiary and further education college - like the community colleges in the States I think. In some states they can also get an extra certificate to become an `endorsed EN' and be able to give out medications.

And RN must do three years at University - thats it, no other alternatives (certainly none that I found lol) It's University or bust!

Well, except for me - I'm doing my BSN in 2 years, but thats because I have a previous degree and got credit for the first year, but I still have to go through a university and I'm still on the same three year course as everyone else.

So, as far as I know, thats it!

R

OrthoNutter · Apr 13, 2003

Actually there's a new initiative by Queensland Health to call all Registered Nurses by the title of Nursing Officer. :chuckle

Why? Who knows? Maybe they're thinking of amalgamating the state health department with the military eventually and figure it'll save them time.

:rolleyes:

The Enrolled Nurses, by the way, get to keep their title. Apparently it would cause confusion if Enrolled Nurses were Nursing Officers as well.

maeyken · Apr 13, 2003

I don't know about the rest of Canada, but in Ontario, they're changing it so that everyone becoming an RN after 2005 has to have a BScN (4 years, university).

There's also RPN's (registered practical nurses) who I think are like LPN/LVN's in the US. That's a college course, I think 2 years.

PSW's (personal support workers) are something relatively new. They're not nurses, and work mostly in LTC, some in home health. They do stuff like personal care, houskeeping duties, shopping and companionship. It's a short college course- like 1 semester I think. Sometimes they are called health care aides.

There are also NP (nurse practitioners). I think it's a master's degree, done after being an RN for at least a few years. It's an extended practice role- they can see pts, do some diagnosis, and even prescribe some things. If anyone is interested, here's a link to a page about the role of NP's

I have a question: what is the difference between nurses with ASN and BSN nurses? (besides the am't of schooling). They're both RN's right? So they have the same duties?

cactus wren · Apr 13, 2003

If you want to become management, then you have to have a BSN. Otherwise, ADN~S can do everything a BSN can do.

Or, if, you want tofurther along..ie..Nurse Practioner, or Nurse Midwife, CRNA, then you have to fisrt have that bachelors degree.

Some folks advocate making a BSN the entry level for all RN`s.This has been talked about for many,many years. And hasn`t gone anywhere...and with the current shortage of bedside nurses, IMHO

abnurse · Apr 13, 2003

Hi!

I am in a BSN program and I agree with Cactus Wren, you need have a BSN to be in management. A BSN has a lot more theory than an ADN/ASN. An ADN/ASN has more clinical hours but according to statistics after 6 months of nursing, an a BSN has surpassed an ADN's knowledge base. I don't know if this is true because I have met some brilliant ADN's and some dumb BSN's.

lisamct · Apr 13, 2003

The UK system goes something like this;

Enrolled Nurses (E.N's)- 2 years at nursing college, they dont actually train E.N's anymore but there are still some out in the workforce, most employers offer a conversion course to RN for any who want to.

Registered Nurses- 3/4 years at University (used to be 3 years at nursing college).You can choose to study to either diploma or degree level,at the moment there is no difference to the level you qualify at or the jobs you are eligible for after you qualify but I think this will change in the future

R.N.'s are split into 3 specialities:

Registered general nurses (R.G.N.)

Regestered mental health nurses (R.M.N.)

Registered learning disability nurses (R.N.L.D.)

All 3 branches do 3 years at Uni although the 2nd and 3rd year in each branch include different topics relevent to the speciality

Midwives-also 3 years at Uni if you go into it without a previous R.G.N. qualification, 18mnths at Uni if you are an R.G.N. (although they're trying to phase the 18mnth course out so that everyone has to do 3 years dedicated midwifery training)

We also have Health Visitors(like the US home health nurses I think), Practise Nurses who work in G.P. surgeries, School Nurses and Nurse Practicioners, all of these are R.G.N's who have completed a further 1/2 years of Uni dependant on their career path (I think this is correct maybe someone can confirm this)

Lisa

rstewart · Apr 13, 2003

Originally posted by abnurse
Hi!

I am in a BSN program and I agree with Cactus Wren, you need have a BSN to be in management. A BSN has a lot more theory than an ADN/ASN. An ADN/ASN has more clinical hours but according to statistics after 6 months of nursing, an a BSN has surpassed an ADN's knowledge base. I don't know if this is true because I have met some brilliant ADN's and some dumb BSN's.

I must take exception to much of your post. Firstly, you do not need a BSN to be in management although I would agree that is the most common educational preparation. As a nurse with a business/accounting/management education I had little difficulty entering management. Indeed, in my experience I have known MBAs running multiple nursing departments who were not even nurses, some without any clinical/medical education license.

Frankly, while acquiring the BSN is most commonly the ticket which is punched to enter management, it is little more than that. By that I mean there is little in the actual curriculum to prepare a BSN for management. There are no requirements to complete actual courses in accounting even at the most basic level, so they are no better prepared to do forecasts, budgets, review financial statements etc. than are AD nurses. Neither are they required to take courses in management, personnel, business law etc.----instead they typically receive mere snippets of information interspersed with their coursework.

This brings me to the real reason for my response: You have stated that "according to statistics" the BSN's knowledge base surpasses that of an AD prepared nurse. I would suspect that this might be true regarding statistical methods/experimental design itself due to required coursework, but with that lone exception I wish to see the evidence supporting your assertion. Apparently, your anecdotal observations have caused you to question the truth of the superiority.

In my experience the origin of the "in six months the BSN will be superior" statements is BSN program instructors in the context of their student's questions /concerns regarding their preparedness to enter the hospital clinical environment. In some programs, while total clinical hours may be similar to others, significant time is spent in nonhospital settings, or the clinical time is spent following around a case manager or a clinical coordinator or director instead of learning hands-on nursing skills. When the concerns of the students are verbalized, the response is " Well, yes, you may have some catching up on skills but in 6 months etc."

Truth be known, in the vast majority of the cases they do catch up----probably even before the six months. But they don't really have Superior knowledge bases. They don't perform better on NCLEX where one might expect to find a difference. And nurses do not take assessments of knowledge bases 6 months out of school to meaningfully compare.

So......next time some prof throws out the superior knowledge base assertion: use that advantage you do have and demand the supporting research. Then (assuming they have anything besides their opinion) examine it carefully for potential sources of contamination and bias.

semstr · Apr 13, 2003

may I come back to the question aked here?

(Rstewart, FYI, there have been many, many threads here on the theme you just wrote about...............)

Here in Austria we have different diploma programs, or "inservice-programs" as they are called too.

We have the general-, pediatric and psychiatry-diploma nursing programs. They all take 3 years. (you need at least 10 years of general schooling to enter one of these programs).

After these diploma programs you can specialize in all kind of different areas of nursing.

Since a few years there is the possibility to study nursing at university too, this study requires 4 years and it ends with a Masterdegree. The first students will finish this summer.

spineCNOR · Apr 13, 2003

Thanks for all the very interesting information! semstr, what about midwifery in your country? Do midwives have to complete a basic nursing program first, or can they go directly into a midwife program?

DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE, MSN, RN · Apr 13, 2003

South Africa- 2 yrs is an enrolled nurse 4 yrs a Sister

which would be ADN, BSN, is considered a Practitioner

Egypt- 1 yr staff, (lpn) , 3 yrs-Nurse(ADN), 5 yrs- RN (BSN)

Singapore-4 yrs-BSN, lowest degree they have the rest are considered helpers, and not allowed to make medical decisions.

Zoe

rstewart · Apr 13, 2003

Originally posted by semstr
may I come back to the question aked here?
(Rstewart, FYI, there have been many, many threads here on the theme you just wrote about...............)

Why, of course, you may. Simply scroll down, hit reply and post away.

If I may, I will forgo reading the many, many threads to which I have been referred; when I make use of the archives, I'd much rather read those posts whining about not getting enough responses to threads which I started.