4.0 GPA ...Great memorizing abilities.Yes...Good thinking/reasoning skills maybe not!

Nurses General Nursing

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I've notice alot of posts regarding NS drop outs! Whats going on? Can it be that the instructors aren't competent enough? Is it that many students have other responsiblities besides NS( families, jobs, etc).I wonder if this also happens in MEd school!!

Once AGAIN guys, I did not say admission standards are or should be affected by Instructor Incomptence.What sense would that make.I said, some students may drop out of NS maybe because of their instructor's lack of knowledge/skill.AGain, this doesn't always happen, but there are schools who cannot afford the best instructors.Thanks.

How many of Today's Nurses were straight A students? Not that many I can imagine.I have known people who got into NS with a 2.7-3.0 GPA and there are great Nurses! LOl being a straight A student is not a indication of becoming a a competent Nurse in the future nor does a 2.7 gpa .Am I right or am I right?lol.How about lower the standards to what they were for those lucky Nurses out there and higher more competent instructors? I think thats the only solution to our shortage and the depression among those who really want to be a Nurse but just arent "A" students but do have GREAT RESONING ABILITIES.

Specializes in Cardiac.
A previous poster wrote: "LOL! I did my final project in my Nursing issues class on this very same subject. It was evaulating nursing school admission criteria vs other professional programs, such as med school, law school, pharmacy school, and dental hygiene. We lack sorely in comparison."

How can you compare nursing school admission standards to those of med school and law school, which require bachelor's degrees at a minimum? I can't speak to pharmacy programs -- there are none in my home state -- but to be admitted to nursing school (ADN or BSN) or a dental hygiene program requires only a high school diploma as the minimum academic credential. (I'm not talking GPA here, only credential.) So, yes, nursing admission standards "lack sorely" in comparison because a BSN requires far less education than an MD or a JD.

Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between graduate nursing programs, medical schools and law schools?

Flame on. I'm wearing asbestos.

That was me. Let's just talk about Dental Hygiene. Sorry, it takes more than a HS diploma to get into that program. It's also a semester more than the ADN program, and requires a semester more in prereqs.

Do we not consider ourselves professionals? That's why we compared ourselves with other professionals. We also compared nursing to police academies and fire academies. I can't think of a single professional education program that is just 'first come first serve'. In addition, a lot of programs do not look at GPA or perform interviews. Even the pharmacy TECH program had interviews. Dental assistant and vet techs did as well!

Sorry, but we are still sorely lacking in comparison--and I don't need to 'flame' someone to prove that point.

Specializes in OR.
I think standards CAN be raised, but this needs to be done fairly and consistently across the board. And I believe the standards can be raised WITHOUT making a 4.0 GPA a pre-requisite for entry .....

Truly, those of us who are nurses all know people who are excellent nursing candidates or nurses, but not necessarily were/are straight-A students.

Personally, I think it would be helpful to interview candidates and get a feel for them before acceptance. Time-consuming? Perhaps, but how much time is consumed right now, weeding out people who should never have been accepted in the first place? I mean, I was not an instructor, but I could see clearly in the first week, who should and should not probably become a nurse.

Also, how about looking hard at the whole person? Possibly considering those who have taken the time to perform community service and/or volunteered in some capacity? Or were involved in their high school in community-service-oriented activities? Or perhaps we could require character references, similar to those needed for job application processes? Those who do well in these areas are the types likely to make EXCELLENT nurses, IMO.

There, I have come up with a couple of ways to raise standards that do not include simply raising the GPA requirement (which just does nothing to ensure a person has what it takes to be a good nurse).

No one wants to see fewer people become nurses; we just want to see higher-caliber people joining our ranks. It would appear there is no shortage of people trying to get into nursing school-----so why not look HARD at those who are, in some other way than just book smarts?

JMO anyhow.

Excellent posts with some good ideas-I too would like schools to get the big picture of a person before admitting them. To me, there is a big difference between someone who has a 4.0, but doesn't work, is supported by mom and dad etc and someone who has a GPA of 3.3(as an example)but is a parent or who works fulltime. Don't get me wrong a 4.0 is something to be proud of but some people have more responsibilities than others. I could never figure out why the instructors gave anyone who worked such a hard time. Evidently, we weren't lazy and we really wanted to be there(on wednesdays, I pulled a 16 hour shift). Everyone is not the same. Just because some people who worked flunked out ,didn't mean I was going to.

Absolutely, nurses are professionals. But there are differing levels of professionalism. It's not fair to say that admission standards for two or four-year nursing programs are "lacking" in comparison to law and medical schools that require a bachelor's degree for starters. These are apples and oranges.

Likewise, why compare nursing education at any level to the lesser training of police and firefighters? How many police officers are required to have college degrees before they take their licensing test? In New England, they're typically required to be at least 25, have a high school diploma and, provided they pass a psych exam, undergo 12 weeks of training at a police academy. Yes, there are college-level criminal justice programs. But most police officers don't seek that level of training.

As far as dental hygiene goes, in my home state, admission to a dental hygiene program requires a high school diploma or a GED. It is a two-year program.

I certainly agree with tyou that nurses are professionals and should be respected as such. And perhaps it is time to change admission standards in an effort to reduce attrition. But I respectfully suggest that comparing nursing school admission standards to those of graduate programs -- or to programs that require no college education at all -- only devalues the ADN or BSN so many of us are working toward.

I had an interview for graduate school.

I agree that they are important- I think you can get a better idea in person than just on paper.

I've known of schools which did not do interviews for admission. Oddly enough, they did not hire employees without an in-person interview! I guess they were afraid that if they saw someone face to face and that person didn't get admitted, the prospective student would say that it was because they were old/young, male/female, black/white/brown/purple or whatever.

Well, that could actually be the case. The people on the selection committee are not immune to having personal bias. For example, I have read here that one can tell who would make a good nurse within the first few minutes of talking to them. Something like that is too subjective (with the exception of extreme cases). That is the main problem I see with interviewing candidates for nursing school. Other than that, I think it's a great idea.

Specializes in OR.
I am shocked that ANY school uses "first come, first served" as a basis/criterion for entry. Unbelievable.

See, this proves my point that more consistent guidelines for entry criteria for incoming nursing students are needed, and NOW. We don't need "fast" or "slick" people----we need intelligent, caring people who have a bit of integrity!

The school I graduated from did this..There were basic standards(you had to have a GPA of 2.5, I think) but someone with a GPA of 2.9 could get in before someone with a 3.9 as long as they were higher on the waiting list. These weaker students found out awfully quick that they were in deep trouble...Mine was not an easy program, despite the waiting list nonsense. I went to one of the advisors to find out what number I was on the list and asked out of curiousity why they didn't use GPA,interviews, or an entrance exam(like they used to 15-20 years ago!) and I was told I was "elitist". Funny thing though, they have recently started trying to raise standards again(Have to pass physiology with a B) and they may try to bring the entrance exam back. If we want nursing to be taken seriously, we have to start valuing intelligence , strong skills and critical thinking along with bedside manner. Compassion, while vital, is not all that's needed to be a good nurse.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I don't know Deb, this way everyone who wants to be a nurse, and who is willing to wait the years it takes to get in, gets an opportunity. I think the long wait lists weed out a lot of people who really don't want to be a nurse. Nursing school is currently weeding out 4.0 nurses and nurses who are interviewed at alarming rates, so surely nursing schools will continue to weed out those who can't cut it.

Those kind, caring, compassionate people with excellent bedside skills, but a 3.5 get in alongside those 4.0 brainiacs. :)

I'd like to think I have all those qualities you mentioned and come from one of those schools of first signup first in line. We were an odd bunch. 60 in and 62 out (two LPNs joined us the 2nd year), the first time that ever happened in my school.

Just a thought.

I have always been a 4.0 student who just happened to want to be a nurse because I felt somewhat "called to it" albeit not like a nun or priest, but It was something I desperately wanted to do. I also knew the market was huge and I would likely never go unemployed. I am no saint, after all. But I do not lack compassion or integrity,which is sadly not true of many who do make it to nursing. I did lack experience, not even having worked as a CNA, and that was not easy to overcome, but I was determined and did.

Now, I will admit, I would have been cheezed off if my program just went by first-come, first-served and 4.0 GPA as their entire basis for entry criteria. They DID require a written paragraph in the application process about why we wanted to become nurses and to discuss our ambitions beyond school, as well as looked at GPA and how many pre-requisite courses were done before application was made. Also, they did require 3 character references in the process.

BUT that all still was not enough, apparently. More than 1/2 washed out. A couple cause they cheated (nice). A few more due to inability to achieve 76% averages or greater, to pass. As I recall, a few others failed due to dismal performance in clinical rotations and/or too many absences or no-shows. I can't remember all the reasons why. I just know, we started with 34 and 16 graduated. They accepted 20 generic students, and others were either prior LPNs, 2 who got pregnant the prior year and were back to finish, students transferred from other programs, advanced-placement students, etc. I did find the prior LPNs and CNAs did very well. None flunked, although I think some instructors were very hard on these folks, for some reason.

I guess I don't have any pat answers. Our entry requirements were quite stringent by comparison to some of what I read here, yet we did wash out quite a few. I do know there is no magic silver-bullet answer like 4.0 GPA or "first-come, first-served". I do think they (my program) could have looked harder at whole-person qualities and volunteerism, as well as prior health care experience as an LPN, CNA or other similar capacity..... I do believe, nowadays, those who are accepted in my alma mater are all required to have their CNA first, so they know better what they are in for and they don't have to spend too much time teaching bed baths, etc (when I was accepted, this was not an entry requirement). I think all programs should require this.

Anyhow, I can't pretend I have all the answers....I just keep asking more questions.

Thanks for your thoughts, Tweety.

Specializes in FNP, Peds, Epilepsy, Mgt., Occ. Ed.
Well, that could actually be the case. The people on the selection committee are not immune to having personal bias. For example, I have read here that one can tell who would make a good nurse within the first few minutes of talking to them. Something like that is too subjective (with the exception of extreme cases). That is the main problem I see with interviewing candidates for nursing school. Other than that, I think it's a great idea.

Part of the reason for having the interviews done by a committee is to help get around personal bias. That is, of course, considering that those on the committee are free to express their actual opinions and not just rubber-stamp someone else's decisions.

The interview should be only part of the process. I think, ideally, that the application information should be blinded and presented to the committee separately, as well.

The interview gives applicants a chance to show that they have the "fire" or the burning desire to really do this thing. That is much clearer in person than on paper.

And, again, most jobs include an in-person interview as well as the presentation of one's qualifications.

Specializes in Looking for a career in NICU.
I didn't quote you in my original response for a reason. I said I've heard some people, and that means more than on person. I've heard it from lots of people in school as well. When you have a really high GPA, you hear it a lot. If I were referring directly to you, I would have quoted your response, like I've done now.

My apologies...seriously :)

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
Anyhow, I can't pretend I have all the answers....I just keep asking more questions.

Thanks for your thoughts, Tweety.

Good post Deb.(shortened in my quote). Of course my program back in a day was designed for someone fresh out of high school, and we indeed did have one candidate squeeze in at the last minute fresh from high school. The policies of the school applied to the whole school and was basically their philosphy to educate anyone in the community, in any program that wanted it, even if it mean remedial courses.

Like you I don't have any answers. Just more questions. First in line/first in the program probably isn't a good idea. However, I definately don't think the 4.0 requirement is a good idea either.

Part of the reason for having the interviews done by a committee is to help get around personal bias. That is, of course, considering that those on the committee are free to express their actual opinions and not just rubber-stamp someone else's decisions.

The interview should be only part of the process. I think, ideally, that the application information should be blinded and presented to the committee separately, as well.

The interview gives applicants a chance to show that they have the "fire" or the burning desire to really do this thing. That is much clearer in person than on paper.

And, again, most jobs include an in-person interview as well as the presentation of one's qualifications.

Yes, I understand that. I was simply saying that was one of the possible problems that could arise from an interview. I agree, most jobs require an interview, but even then there is still the possibility of personal bias.

How can you compare nursing school admission standards to those of med school and law school, which require bachelor's degrees at a minimum? I can't speak to pharmacy programs -- there are none in my home state -- but to be admitted to nursing school (ADN or BSN) or a dental hygiene program requires only a high school diploma as the minimum academic credential. (I'm not talking GPA here, only credential.) So, yes, nursing admission standards "lack sorely" in comparison because a BSN requires far less education than an MD or a JD.

Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between graduate nursing programs, medical schools and law schools?

Flame on. I'm wearing asbestos.

I see your point about the difference between entrance into graduate schools versus undergraduate schools. However, many undergraduate colleges in this country do require high school students to have an essay and personal references, in addition to good grades and standardized test scores, in order to be considered for admission. They don't just admit those with the highest grades and tests scores. I think that more nursing schools should do the same.

Agreed. Maybe the answer isn't to raise admissions standards but to change the process.

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