4.0 GPA ...Great memorizing abilities.Yes...Good thinking/reasoning skills maybe not! - page 6

I've notice alot of posts regarding NS drop outs! Whats going on? Can it be that the instructors aren't competent enough? Is it that many students have other responsiblities besides NS( families,... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from Tweety
    I don't know Deb, this way everyone who wants to be a nurse, and who is willing to wait the years it takes to get in, gets an opportunity. I think the long wait lists weed out a lot of people who really don't want to be a nurse. Nursing school is currently weeding out 4.0 nurses and nurses who are interviewed at alarming rates, so surely nursing schools will continue to weed out those who can't cut it.

    Those kind, caring, compassionate people with excellent bedside skills, but a 3.5 get in alongside those 4.0 brainiacs.

    I'd like to think I have all those qualities you mentioned and come from one of those schools of first signup first in line. We were an odd bunch. 60 in and 62 out (two LPNs joined us the 2nd year), the first time that ever happened in my school.

    Just a thought.
    I have always been a 4.0 student who just happened to want to be a nurse because I felt somewhat "called to it" albeit not like a nun or priest, but It was something I desperately wanted to do. I also knew the market was huge and I would likely never go unemployed. I am no saint, after all. But I do not lack compassion or integrity,which is sadly not true of many who do make it to nursing. I did lack experience, not even having worked as a CNA, and that was not easy to overcome, but I was determined and did.

    Now, I will admit, I would have been cheezed off if my program just went by first-come, first-served and 4.0 GPA as their entire basis for entry criteria. They DID require a written paragraph in the application process about why we wanted to become nurses and to discuss our ambitions beyond school, as well as looked at GPA and how many pre-requisite courses were done before application was made. Also, they did require 3 character references in the process.

    BUT that all still was not enough, apparently. More than 1/2 washed out. A couple cause they cheated (nice). A few more due to inability to achieve 76% averages or greater, to pass. As I recall, a few others failed due to dismal performance in clinical rotations and/or too many absences or no-shows. I can't remember all the reasons why. I just know, we started with 34 and 16 graduated. They accepted 20 generic students, and others were either prior LPNs, 2 who got pregnant the prior year and were back to finish, students transferred from other programs, advanced-placement students, etc. I did find the prior LPNs and CNAs did very well. None flunked, although I think some instructors were very hard on these folks, for some reason.

    I guess I don't have any pat answers. Our entry requirements were quite stringent by comparison to some of what I read here, yet we did wash out quite a few. I do know there is no magic silver-bullet answer like 4.0 GPA or "first-come, first-served". I do think they (my program) could have looked harder at whole-person qualities and volunteerism, as well as prior health care experience as an LPN, CNA or other similar capacity..... I do believe, nowadays, those who are accepted in my alma mater are all required to have their CNA first, so they know better what they are in for and they don't have to spend too much time teaching bed baths, etc (when I was accepted, this was not an entry requirement). I think all programs should require this.

    Anyhow, I can't pretend I have all the answers....I just keep asking more questions.

    Thanks for your thoughts, Tweety.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Oct 23, '06
  2. by   santhony44
    Quote from Gods child
    Well, that could actually be the case. The people on the selection committee are not immune to having personal bias. For example, I have read here that one can tell who would make a good nurse within the first few minutes of talking to them. Something like that is too subjective (with the exception of extreme cases). That is the main problem I see with interviewing candidates for nursing school. Other than that, I think it's a great idea.
    Part of the reason for having the interviews done by a committee is to help get around personal bias. That is, of course, considering that those on the committee are free to express their actual opinions and not just rubber-stamp someone else's decisions.

    The interview should be only part of the process. I think, ideally, that the application information should be blinded and presented to the committee separately, as well.

    The interview gives applicants a chance to show that they have the "fire" or the burning desire to really do this thing. That is much clearer in person than on paper.

    And, again, most jobs include an in-person interview as well as the presentation of one's qualifications.
  3. by   BSNtobe2009
    Quote from cardiacRN2006
    I didn't quote you in my original response for a reason. I said I've heard some people, and that means more than on person. I've heard it from lots of people in school as well. When you have a really high GPA, you hear it a lot. If I were referring directly to you, I would have quoted your response, like I've done now.
    My apologies...seriously
  4. by   Tweety
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Anyhow, I can't pretend I have all the answers....I just keep asking more questions.

    Thanks for your thoughts, Tweety.

    Good post Deb.(shortened in my quote). Of course my program back in a day was designed for someone fresh out of high school, and we indeed did have one candidate squeeze in at the last minute fresh from high school. The policies of the school applied to the whole school and was basically their philosphy to educate anyone in the community, in any program that wanted it, even if it mean remedial courses.

    Like you I don't have any answers. Just more questions. First in line/first in the program probably isn't a good idea. However, I definately don't think the 4.0 requirement is a good idea either.
  5. by   Gods child
    Quote from santhony44
    Part of the reason for having the interviews done by a committee is to help get around personal bias. That is, of course, considering that those on the committee are free to express their actual opinions and not just rubber-stamp someone else's decisions.

    The interview should be only part of the process. I think, ideally, that the application information should be blinded and presented to the committee separately, as well.

    The interview gives applicants a chance to show that they have the "fire" or the burning desire to really do this thing. That is much clearer in person than on paper.

    And, again, most jobs include an in-person interview as well as the presentation of one's qualifications.

    Yes, I understand that. :spin: I was simply saying that was one of the possible problems that could arise from an interview. I agree, most jobs require an interview, but even then there is still the possibility of personal bias.
  6. by   Plagueis
    Quote from Freedom42
    How can you compare nursing school admission standards to those of med school and law school, which require bachelor's degrees at a minimum? I can't speak to pharmacy programs -- there are none in my home state -- but to be admitted to nursing school (ADN or BSN) or a dental hygiene program requires only a high school diploma as the minimum academic credential. (I'm not talking GPA here, only credential.) So, yes, nursing admission standards "lack sorely" in comparison because a BSN requires far less education than an MD or a JD.

    Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between graduate nursing programs, medical schools and law schools?

    Flame on. I'm wearing asbestos.
    I see your point about the difference between entrance into graduate schools versus undergraduate schools. However, many undergraduate colleges in this country do require high school students to have an essay and personal references, in addition to good grades and standardized test scores, in order to be considered for admission. They don't just admit those with the highest grades and tests scores. I think that more nursing schools should do the same.
  7. by   Freedom42
    Agreed. Maybe the answer isn't to raise admissions standards but to change the process.
  8. by   RNsoon!
    Quote from Freedom42
    A previous poster wrote: "LOL! I did my final project in my Nursing issues class on this very same subject. It was evaulating nursing school admission criteria vs other professional programs, such as med school, law school, pharmacy school, and dental hygiene. We lack sorely in comparison."

    How can you compare nursing school admission standards to those of med school and law school, which require bachelor's degrees at a minimum? I can't speak to pharmacy programs -- there are none in my home state -- but to be admitted to nursing school (ADN or BSN) or a dental hygiene program requires only a high school diploma as the minimum academic credential. (I'm not talking GPA here, only credential.) So, yes, nursing admission standards "lack sorely" in comparison because a BSN requires far less education than an MD or a JD.



    Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between graduate nursing programs, medical schools and law schools?

    Flame on. I'm wearing asbestos.
    Totally agree!
  9. by   RNsoon!
    I wonder if those who insist that NS should increase their admission standards actually applied to Ns with a 4.0 GPA.hmmmm..Lalalalalalaalalala...Im not saying anymore..lol
  10. by   santhony44
    Quote from Gods child
    Yes, I understand that. :spin: I was simply saying that was one of the possible problems that could arise from an interview. I agree, most jobs require an interview, but even then there is still the possibility of personal bias.
    There might be a way to set up a computer program to make selections that are totally unbiased, but I doubt that would work, either.

    I just thought that worrying about someone yelling "discrimination!" was not a good reason to forego the interviews. After all, unless you say something like, "Oh, we see you're purple. Very sorry, but we only take two purple people a year and those slots are filled," then the applicant won't know for sure why he or she was not chosen.

    There's always personal bias in an interview situation. Most of us probably don't know why we may be biased against someone. I had the experience once of interviewing with someone after a long hard morning of travel (at great expense to the institution). I walked into his office behind the HR lady, shook his hand, looked into his eyes, and knew I wasn't gettting the job. I have no idea why. I chalked it up to experience and let it go.
  11. by   ortess1971
    Quote from RNsoon!
    I wonder if those who insist that NS should increase their admission standards actually applied to Ns with a 4.0 GPA.hmmmm..Lalalalalalaalalala...Im not saying anymore..lol
    Not quite a 4.0 but a 3.87..still pretty good I think, especially for someone who took 3 classes a semester and worked 40 hours....Ultimately, I think it has to be a combination of factors for admission. I just think that the desire to be a nurse is not enough, you have to be able to do college level work. Sadly, far too many students are not(or they are able, but are lazy) and this doesn't benefit them in the long run either because schools don't give you a refund if you fail. They could care less if you pass, they just want the tuition..
    Last edit by ortess1971 on Oct 23, '06
  12. by   icugirl33
    Thank God for the high standards. We have enough problems with nursing as it is. I started school with 90 people and graduated with 35. All of the 90 original students had GPA no lower than 3.6. If someone graduates from nursing school with a high GPA, it's because they are truly smart. Students are tested on application and analysis of knowledge. Definition is what is requires memory (like pre reqs).
  13. by   Gods child
    Quote from santhony44
    There might be a way to set up a computer program to make selections that are totally unbiased, but I doubt that would work, either.

    I just thought that worrying about someone yelling "discrimination!" was not a good reason to forego the interviews. After all, unless you say something like, "Oh, we see you're purple. Very sorry, but we only take two purple people a year and those slots are filled," then the applicant won't know for sure why he or she was not chosen.

    There's always personal bias in an interview situation. Most of us probably don't know why we may be biased against someone. I had the experience once of interviewing with someone after a long hard morning of travel (at great expense to the institution). I walked into his office behind the HR lady, shook his hand, looked into his eyes, and knew I wasn't gettting the job. I have no idea why. I chalked it up to experience and let it go.

    I agree, especially with the bolded statement. The goal of my reply was just to point out the downside to interviewing nursing candidates. The good probably outweighs the bad.

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