12-Step Coercion

Nurses General Nursing

Published

the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/ncbon.html

We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals. As usual, he who speaks loudest or heard the most often becomes "right" in the minds of those too small minded to think for themselves. The masses follow along like sheep behind those with the biggest mouths. It begins when they are in preschool and continues throughout their lives. I really feel sorry for them.

I personally believe in Jesus Christ, AA, and the Twelve Steps. I just happen to believe also in the Constitution. I thought freedom to choose a religion or no religion was part of that.

Oh welll......btw...

loerith is not a godless individual.

And logic and reason continue to win.

Nice try.....no cigar.

Love and Peace ,

loerith

Wow!!! Especially the quote by Justice Black!

I agree with LarryG, Tweety, and Nurse Ratched that this topic has generated some lively, productive discussion. I also share their concern that some posters are using this thread as a podium to express their personal religious views and commentary. In one sense, I feel that we should be allowed to voice our opinions (after all, it is a free country). However, when those personal opinions are presented as indisputable fact, with no room for debate, they become divisive and this thread will ultimately degenerate into an "us versus them" standoff with little or no productive discourse. That being said, I would like to address a few opinions that I feel merit debate. One particular poster states:

I was not aware that this country was built upon any God, let alone a particular God. Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding fathers of this country stated:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

In fact, Jefferson made it very clear that this country was not founded on a belief in God when he said:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

Thomas Jefferson

(1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President

On the subject of the legality of forced prayer, the same poster claims:

Forced prayer and coerced religious exercise is illegal because our Constitution says so, and has always said so, not because some "big mouth folks", atheists, or liberals deemed it that way.

"The very reason for the First Amendment

is to make the people of this country free

to think, speak, write and worship as they wish,

not as the Government commands."

Justice Hugo L. Black

(1886-1971) US Supreme Court Justice

And this claim:

An atheist should NEVER be compelled to say God or pray to God, regardless of circumstance. It is not an "excuse to stay drunk or hopped up on drugs"; it is free exercise of our human, inalienable right to religious freedom.

The above poster also states that:

And:

How did the discussion of addiction and mandated religious treatment turn into crime and punishment? This is way off topic. The subject of this thread is alternative programs for addicted nurses that mandate 12-step attendance. Alternative programs are just that.....alternative to discipline. Punishment is discipline and, as such, should be discussed in a separate thread about the disciplinary division of the boards of nursing. We are talking about treatment options here, not "choices of punishment", although I have to admit that some may find mandated 12-step attendance more a form of punishment than treatment.

It seems to me that there is fear, among some people, that those who advocate freedom from religion are attempting abolish religion all together. That is just not so. As a godless liberal, I respect the right of others to believe and worship their beliefs. Likewise, I advocate the right to disbelieve without political or personal censure. As a nurse who once struggled with alcoholism, I respect the right of other addicted nurses to choose their own method of recovery and I advocate against the unconstitutional practice of forcing recovering nurses to accept and participate in a religious treatment in order to preserve their professional license.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
3rd shiftguy you think everyone who disagrees with you is "closed minded" don't take umbriage but are you really open minded yourself====

As I pass over 7,000 posts, I can honestly say I've been fairly open-minded. I have strong feelings about somethings and over the course of my life have come to those decisions and they will never be swayed, so no I'm not open-minded in all areas.

I don't think everyone who disagrees with me is closed minded. In fact I can only think of two posters that I've called closed minded recently. Not bad considering the 100s of posters I've read on this board.

Originally Posted by Dixiedi

We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals. As usual, he who speaks loudest or heard the most often becomes "right" in the minds of those too small minded to think for themselves. The masses follow along like sheep behind those with the biggest mouths. It begins when they are in preschool and continues throughout their lives. I really feel sorry for them.

I agree that there are some out there making every effort to take every mention of God out of everyday life. I also believe that many of our country's laws where built upon God ordained principles. I believe however that freedom of choice (or religion) should be up to the individual. Nobody should be forced to believe in God...... all should be free to choose.
Originally Posted by Dixiedi

We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals.

A few more thoughts on this statement: Our government was set up by Christians, who wanted to follow God. Too many people have forgotten that God established Three Institutions among men:

1. The Church

2. The Government, and

3. The Family

The purpose of the government is to govern, to regulate the conduct of people, to approve what is good and to disaprove what is evil. The Book of Proverbs in the Old Testament is filled with contrasts between moral leaders of government (rulers) and immoral Leaders of government.

Government is not simply about government "services". According to the Bible, one of the main purposes of government is to resist evil, to fight against evil.

This is something that the government should be doing. All law is - by its very nature - the imposition of someone's morality - against the "morality" of those who do not agree.

The government enforces the morality of the citizen against the morality of the murderer.

The government enforces the morality of the citizen against the morality of the drug dealer.

People say that government can't legislate morality. That is simply a falsehood. The fact is that ALL law IS the legislation of morality.

It is impossible to say that something is illegal, without also saying that the action which is illegal is also immoral. That IS the basis of a Judeo-Christian society.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

Quailfeather. That is a well-throught out, level-headed post! Woot! :)

Quailfeather. That is a well-throught out, level-headed post! Woot! :)

I second that motion Tweety!!!....I couldn't have said it better. :)

after finishing all 19 pages of this extremely animated, sometimes oppositional thread, may i say "AAAAAAAAAMEN!"

Hello, I'm writing to you because I think it's rather pertinent to my situation. I was recently terminated at my job for "diverting drugs". This was not true, but it did look bad. I did have several mischarting errors, but stealing drugs had nothing to do with it. I was told during my termination interview that if I "admitted to having a (drug) problem" I would recieve treatement, and be able to continue on at the site. They gave me this choice at least 3 times, and I almost, at one point just said "yes, I have a problem", but I could NOT bring myself to admit to a problem that I didn't have. I don't drink, smoke, or take illegal drugs. Advil is about as far as I'll go. Maybe a Zantac if I had a particularly stressful day. It may be important to mention here that they didn't offer me a drug test which I would have gladly taken, and no one can say that my behavior indicated intoxication, nor that they ever suspected me of stealing drugs. My reputation at the hospital was un-besmirched, and I had nothing, but praise for my capabilities from other nurses who knew me, and the medical staff with which I worked.

My question to you, or anyone who may have any relevant information is this; Can I lose my license over this? I am just sick about the whole situation. Do I need to get an attorney? I love being a nurse, have worked tirelessly at it, and would like to continue.

The whole scenario smacks of the Witch Trials; "Admit that you have renounced God, and you can live. If you maintain your innocence, you'll go to the stake.

Thank you

Also, no one is forcing people to attend meetings and participate in AA -- it is merely offered as an option if a person wants to retain or regain a license to practice nursing. None of us has a RIGHT to a license as an RN (or LPN, or any other occupation that requires a license) -- we are granted a license by the licensing board, which is responsible to the public for ensuring that the persons it licenses are able to practice safely.

The impaired professional programs all got started because people were (rightly) upset about losing their licenses (and their professions) permanently for a mistake or problem that could be resolved, and it was felt that professionals with drug or alcohol problems would be better motivated to seek treatment and sobriety if they had a chance of getting their licenses back (I was around back when this was considered a controversial idea! :) ). So, the licensing boards attempted to develop programs which could offer people a chance to return to professional practice while still protecting the public safety. These programs typically combine active participation in an ongoing treatment program with lots of monitoring.

The BONs in each state issue us licenses on the condition that we continue to meet their requirements to their satisfaction. None of us owns her/his license or has a right to her/his license. The entire process is voluntary -- if someone doesn't want to meet the board's requirements, including participating in a 12-step program (that is offered as an voluntary alternative to just losing your license forever), that person is free to pursue some other line of work ...

I don't mean to sound harsh, or critical of any particular individual -- but that's the reality of the situation ... :)

Hello, I'm writing to you because I think it's rather pertinent to my situation. I was recently terminated at my job for "diverting drugs". This was not true, but it did look bad. I did have several mischarting errors, but stealing drugs had nothing to do with it. I was told during my termination interview that if I "admitted to having a (drug) problem" I would recieve treatement, and be able to continue on at the site. They gave me this choice at least 3 times, and I almost, at one point just said "yes, I have a problem", but I could NOT bring myself to admit to a problem that I didn't have. I don't drink, smoke, or take illegal drugs. Advil is about as far as I'll go. Maybe a Zantac if I had a particularly stressful day. It may be important to mention here that they didn't offer me a drug test which I would have gladly taken, and no one can say that my behavior indicated intoxication, nor that they ever suspected me of stealing drugs. My reputation at the hospital was un-besmirched, and I had nothing, but praise for my capabilities from other nurses who knew me, and the medical staff with which I worked.

My question to you, or anyone who may have any relevant information is this; Can I lose my license over this? I am just sick about the whole situation. Do I need to get an attorney? I love being a nurse, have worked tirelessly at it, and would like to continue.

The whole scenario smacks of the Witch Trials; "Admit that you have renounced God, and you can live. If you maintain your innocence, you'll go to the stake.

Thank you

I'd get a lawyer! Have a complete drug screen done and file suit against this hospital.

It sounds like a witch trial and I wouldn't give them the opportunity to put me any more into the defensive. I would at least attempt to put myself on the offensive and them on the defensive.

Get that drug screen done as soon as possible. As long as you can prove you were not taking drugs yourself, they would be forced into coming up with another reason for your diverting them. Well, that only leaves 1 possibility, that would be trafficking and I doubt they would jump into that as it opens up a can of worms their imaginations can't produce evidence for.

Specializes in Geriatrics/Oncology/Psych/College Health.

I have to say get a lawyer. Maybe it's naive of me, but I can't envision admitting to a drug problem I didn't have. I'd rather lose my license.

I'd say give me urine, blood, hair tests - whatever - won't find a thing.

I agree. I would rather lose my license than admit something that is false.

(Back to the original thread for a moment (re coercion).

Two aspects to an acknowledged drug problem: punishment and treatment.

Punishment is mandatory. I believe treatment should be voluntary.)

Mschrisco

+ Add a Comment