Enraged (venting) - page 4

OK, I know y'all can relate... Tonight I received a 23yoM, out drinking and driving, hitting parked cars. He already has 2 felony DUI's on his records. He fought with fire department on scene... Read More

  1. by   TrudyRN
    Quote from MLOS
    Just curious ... have you ever called Security while you were being assaulted?

    I thank God that I have never been assaulted. Having worked in Corrections, though, things often got threatening. I would simply raise my voice and say to the inmate, "Don't make me yell for a Deputy!" Before I knew it, several deps were at my side and the inmate had either come to his senses and started behaving safely or was escorted off, his med care to resume at a later time.

    The key here is that I raised my voice and yelled for help. If other staff had been around the OP (and I think they were, based on him saying that they were gathered outside the scanner room), he could pretty easily have raised his voice and conveyed to them that they needed to stat get him Security backup.

    Or, he should require that the doctor order the pt to be controlled with anesthesia/intubation for the scan or take whatever other steps were necessary to keep everyone safe.

    Are you advocating that nurses allow themselves to enter dangerous situations? Are you saying nurses should stay in them if they find themselves in them? What exactly are you trying to say?
  2. by   TrudyRN
    Quote from meownsmile
    I say you should have taken him back to ER,, called his lawyer daddy and let him sign him out AMA,, so the cops could arrest him as he walked out the door. Keep daddy up all night with him filling out paperwork and letting him deal with the monster he created.
    Sorry i have NO patience whatsoever for drunks of anykind.
    The sign out AMA part sounds good to me but I wonder about the legality of allowing a drunk to do that. If he later got hurt, there might be liability there.

    I'm not so sure we should automatically blame Dad for the son's trouble.
  3. by   TrudyRN
    Quote from SiamCat1
    In a extremely concerted effort to not be disrespectful in any way, I will just say that anyone who took measures to protect themselves after having been puched twice in the chest and once in the face IS NOT an assault and batterer, but a VICTIM of assault and battery.

    Where I wonder, did this idea come from, that health care individuals have no right to protect THEMSELVES from physical harm inflicted by another individual? Where do you draw the line between getting hit 2,3,4,5 times and getting dead? Several well placed hard punches can knock a person out, and then what? You are at the mercy of someone who obviously did not feel it was wrong to punch you in the first place, you really think it's not a leap that they might not feel its wrong to kill you just because they feel like it?

    Not in my world people, I've got three babies to go home to.
    This entire line of reasoning has me enraged.
    Angela, I never said we had no right to protect ourselves. That part you read into what I wrote. Please don't put words in my mouth or assume that I meant something I didn't say. We have a perfect right to defend ourselves and go home to our families and not get hurt at work.

    I just responded to the question, that's all, with an opinion. I am not a lawyer, I don't know all the circumstances (read lower where the OP elaborates more). But I do 2000% believe that nurses should protect themselves. I'm just not sure that punching the guy was the best way. I imagine a strong case could be made for self-defense. Again, read the OP's elaboration a few posts down. Er, well, up, I guess that would be. A few posts up.
  4. by   TrudyRN
    Quote from nuangel1
    she did not assault and battery the pt she defended herself he had already punched her several times and had her arm .and who are you to tell her to stop working with this type of pt ? she works in an ed this is what we see everyday every shift .just because a pt is addicted does not give them the right and an automatic pass to violence with ttheir caregivers .we don't make them addicted they are responsible for their own actions.we as caregivers do have a right to protect ourselves.i am glad she is pressing charges .
    I am just answering the OP's question.

    If you work somewhere where you know you are prone to violence, why stay there and then c/o about it? It sounds like my former boss - she bought a house on a golf course and then c/o that there were golfers and golf balls on her property. And no, I don't think we should be punching bags, no, we did not cause their addiction and should not have to suffer because of it. But, in your case, you really should try to get security at your ER. It sounds like your employer doesn't value you and your colleagues very well. And you guys let them get by with it so maybe you don't value yourselves much, either. I believe thoroughly in self-defense and in going home whole. I'm glad he's pressing charges, too.
  5. by   topkat
    too bad the OP didn't have the tazer available in the CT scanner..although it sounds like this guy was so blitzed he probably didn't care or had so much "anesthesia" already on board he couldn't feel it....hope the OP is working thru this..best wishes



    topkat
  6. by   Altra
    Quote from TrudyRN
    I thank God that I have never been assaulted. Having worked in Corrections, though, things often got threatening. I would simply raise my voice and say to the inmate, "Don't make me yell for a Deputy!" Before I knew it, several deps were at my side and the inmate had either come to his senses and started behaving safely or was escorted off, his med care to resume at a later time.

    The key here is that I raised my voice and yelled for help. If other staff had been around the OP (and I think they were, based on him saying that they were gathered outside the scanner room), he could pretty easily have raised his voice and conveyed to them that they needed to stat get him Security backup.

    Or, he should require that the doctor order the pt to be controlled with anesthesia/intubation for the scan or take whatever other steps were necessary to keep everyone safe.

    Are you advocating that nurses allow themselves to enter dangerous situations? Are you saying nurses should stay in them if they find themselves in them? What exactly are you trying to say?
    I have never worked in corrections although I once did a volunteer day helping w/adult literacy classes in a state prison setting. Whole different world than a hospital ... totally different level of supervision of inmates and totally different setting designed specifically for command & control, not health care.

    I could be wrong, but I read your post to be taking the OP to task for defending herself. Your suggestions included: 1) not working with "this type of patient" and 2) calling security. Again, I could be wrong, but your original post, and your subsequent posting, suggest that the OP is somehow at fault for losing her temper or being prone to violence or something.

    So I asked the question: have you ever been assaulted? That is, have you ever been in a situation where you needed to act to minimize physical harm to yourself NOW, not as a hypothetical situation but NOW?

    I found your suggestions outrageously naive for someone who has been practicing for any length of time. In the time it took for the 10, 12, 20, or however many steps it took for the police officers and others to get to the OP, she was being punched. This is a real event - not a cartoon where the action gets paused for the OP to call security.

    I wholeheartedly agree that this terrible incident could have been avoided if the police had stayed within arms length of the patient (as they do in my facility). But the bottom line is that that did not happen, and the OP took steps to minimize physical harm to herself.
  7. by   tddowney
    Quote from TrudyRN
    He is ill, let's not forget. He has an addiction to alcohol. Addiction. A person will sell his soul to satisfy a craving when addicted. It is an illness and the person deserves treatment. He might need jail, too. But he definitely needs treatment. And to be forgiven. There, but for the grace of God, go you and I.
    Yes, addiction is an illness. But illness is not an excuse for assaulting anyone.

    The OP believed, rightly from the facts related, that he/she was in imminent threat of bodily harm, indeed had been harmed already, and reacted to prevent further harm. Bravo. The OP did not continue to strike the Pt/assaulter after he had released him/her.

    I was a practicing alcoholic for a couple decades, and I can tell you that it does no one any good, especially the addict, to give them a pass on violent behavior.

    Yes, they should get treatment.......as soon as they are in a state to get it without harming the staff trying to render that treatment.
  8. by   SaderNurse05
    [I]In an extremely concerted effort to not be disrespectful in any way, I will just say that anyone who took measures to protect themselves after having been puched twice in the chest and once in the face IS NOT an assault and batterer, but a VICTIM of assault and battery. [/I]: [/I]
  9. by   Email4KH
    Quote from andhow5
    .........I told him that we were done playing the easy way, and he would now be going down the hard road, and told him I was taking him back to the ER to paralyze and intubate him.
    If you're talking about tips for calming him down, I'd say the chemical paralysis and intubation is a good way to go. As far as you, I hope that seeing that ******* sentenced to prison will make you feel better. Zero tolerance. Pursue conviction.

    Contact your Congressman about initiating Federal legislation to protect healthcare workers.
  10. by   msgas
    Know anybody that ever woke up and said I think I'll be a drunk, opiate addicted, crack prostitute today? Destroy my family, my potential. Be eaten up by guilt and shame whenever/if ever I'm not high.

    I wonder about the treatment choices in your ED. If this guy was so combative, why didn't the treatment team assess him, realize he wasn't going to cooperate and tube him, paralyze him for the CT? Too much trouble? I agree you have to protect yourself and others. That's the job. In the field tazer is an appropriate response at times. In the ED, it's not. Lots of other options.

    Most of us got in to nursing because of our calling to be caring, compassionate and nurturing. I know it is hard for me to treat everyone that comes through the door with those qualities. I am human. I get tired. I have opinions on things. I see people with severe COPD or lung ca that continue to smoke and it's hard for me. The unwed young mother with no prenatal care having baby#x. The morbidly obese. The child suffering from abuse or neglect. IMHO, it's not mine to judge them. I have to look at what they are touching inside of me to cause the feelings I have.

    I chose to be a nurse. Not everyone can do what we do. It's a calling and a privilege. It also has responsibilities to be a caring patient advocate for all who enter our care. Sometimes to put ourselves aside to care for the patient. I'm not saying I'm perfect at it nor that it's easy, but it's there. You mention that he didn't have a head injury. If he had, would you have treated him differently? How about if he had been a decompensating schizophrenic?

    Sorry you had a bad night.

    msgas
  11. by   Email4KH
    I care about a worthless piece of crap as much as the next nurse, but, as a father of four, the well-being of violent ED patients is not my first priority.
    My going home safely is.

    If it truly comes down to a choice about whether a violent patient or I am going to be hurt, there's no choice about it. I'm not talking about hurting somebody just because they're a turd and you can. I'm talking about exercising all necessary measures. Here's a personal policy I strictly enforce:

    "Violent patient, if anybody here is getting hurt, it's not gonna be my children's daddy."

    As long as nurses and the law continue to accept assault as part of nursing, we will continue to be victims.
    Defend yourself. It's a basic human right.
  12. by   msgas
    Interesting. And you are a NURSE? Lots of anger and rage in your post. I don't know I would be glad to see you coming in to the ED.
  13. by   Email4KH
    Quote from msgas
    Interesting. And you are a NURSE? Lots of anger and rage in your post. I don't know I would be glad to see you coming in to the ED.
    Yes, and a damned good one.
    No anger. No rage. Just zero tolerance for violence against healthcare workers. If you were getting beaten up by some violent patient you're coddling, I'll bet you'd love to see me coming.

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