what can u say about doctors taking-up nursing

jazznkate · Apr 25, 2004

I'm from the Philippines and I think what's happening is not so good. I could undertand though why the doctors want to be RNs. My aunt is a doctor there and makes $400 a month. A new grad nurse here in California could start at $60,000/year. However, you mentioned their bad attitude towards nurses, don't worry that wont be tolerated here. And besides they will not be MDs here, they will be nurses. I could understand your frustration.

ethelbsnrn · Apr 27, 2004

Do you think America is perfect?....ha-ha-ha! There are doctors here, too that treat nurses as servants, doctors that think nurses' ideas are stupid, doctors that shout and yell at nurses, throw charts to nurses. Have you ever seen a surgical clamp flying to the ceiling? We are all human. Human behavior comes from breeding, not from where you live.

pickledpepperRN · Apr 27, 2004

I have worked with people who were doctors in their country and became nurses and respiratory therapists here in California.

Many Russian speaking former MDs from the former USSR work here and are invaluable where we have many elderly Russians as patients.

A few former MDs from the Philippines are fine nurses.

The Egyptian MD who worked as an RT was and is a kind man, now a pulmonologist after taking courses to become an MD here.

One rude impatient nurse (won't tell the nationality) is now a rude impatient physician.

I know rude clerks and houskeepers too.

Thankfully most nurses I have met are kind to patients and each other.

ernest68 · Apr 28, 2004

:rolleyes: As with everything else in Life that one commits to-One has to do it for the right reasons, or else one fails in the endeavor. While others have considered Nursing as a mere "career", I was indoctrinated to treat it as a vocation(Once a nurse, always a nurse!) where you are expected to uphold certain codes and standards in order to deserve wearing the title. And for the last 15 years that I have honorably served as an RN, there is not one shred of regret for choosing this path.

I, too, am like the many who come from around the world to the land of milk and honey. I was born, grew up and trained as a nurse in the Philippines. I made a painful decision to leave everything and everyone I loved in the early 90s to come to a foreign land in search of a bright future, not knowing what to expect. I faced criticism from my friends then because I was accused of contributing to the national "brain drain", but my commitment to help my widowed mother get my other siblings through college(including a brother through medicine) strenghtened my resolve to leave. I felt the bitter taste of being discriminated against because of my foreign accent and my skin color but I did not let that tarnish and blur my genuine desire to care for them. Perhaps my sincerity to help will help others see past my physical aspects and convince them that I am there to help them through their pain-physical or emotional. That I will care for their father or mother like they were mine, so they can go to sleep at night knowing that someone cares.

The whole point here is that it really does not matter which part of the world you come from or what previous field you were in prior to deciding to become a nurse -as long as your heart is in the right place. Life will be rewarding if you find happiness and fulfillment in what you do, and people will notice it in you. When others see that you are happy with your "career", maybe it will become the biggest recruitment tool to get more people into it. My wife is also a nurse and my kids are already showing a lot of interest in the field. It has become a tradition we are hoping will continue with the next generations. Pay it forward. Mabuhay.(Long live)

pickledpepperRN · Apr 28, 2004

Perhaps my sincerity to help will help others see past my physical aspects and convince them that I am there to help them through their pain-physical or emotional. That I will care for their father or mother like they were mine, so they can go to sleep at night knowing that someone cares.
The whole point here is that it really does not matter which part of the world you come from or what previous field you were in prior to deciding to become a nurse -as long as your heart is in the right place. Life will be rewarding if you find happiness and fulfillment in what you do, and people will notice it in you. When others see that you are happy with your "career", maybe it will become the biggest recruitment tool to get more people into it. My wife is also a nurse and my kids are already showing a lot of interest in the field. It has become a tradition we are hoping will continue with the next generations. Pay it forward. Mabuhay.(Long live)

Ernest, THANK YOU!

We need you! Our CNA elected leadership from Los Angeles is more than 50% Philippino, some educated there and others in the USA or Canada. Regarding your accent, most of us working in hospitals equate it with an intelligent educated person.

I will never forget my disbelief the first time I met a dumb woman from the Philippines! I was in denial. I was buying 5 bottles of shampoo. Because one did not have a price sticker she called the manager. She would not just charge the same price as the other four! As the line behind me became more and more impatient I realized this woman was not being a troublemaker on purpose. She was not being mean. She was just dumb! I had never encountered a Philippino who was not highly intelligent before. Had she spoken with an American accent i would have assumed a less than high IQ sooner.

Look at this timing, the Manila Times had this article dated today!

Why doctors become overseas nurses

http://www.manilatimes.net/national...040428opi6.html

Wednesday, April 28, 2004

Why doctors become overseas nurses

By Atenodoro R. Ruiz, M.D.

THE issue of our local doctors taking up nursing to become registered nurses abroad, specifically in the United States, has been the subject of several newspaper articles. National dailies reported that a recent medical board topnotcher, Dr. Emil Reyes Jacinto, had decided to become a nurse abroad instead of pursuing his medical career in the Philippines. One of the daily newspapers waas even quick to criticize him as a "sell-out" in their editorial.

I do not condone doctors who have decided to become nurses abroad, but I would like to offer another perspective, this time from somebody from the medical community.

As an associate editor of the Philippine Journal of Internal Medicine, I wrote the latest editorial (March/April 2004 issue) of this official publication of the Philippine College of Physicians, entitled "Why Doctors Leave Our Shores." This is a composite of various insights from several doctors in our society. Permission has been obtained in publishing excerpts from my editorial.

Interestingly, Filipino overseas contract workers in the Middle East and Hong Kong have been declared "heroes" of the Philippine economy, while doctors-turned-nurses who left our shores for better opportunities are denounced as "selfish and unpatriotic." I hope this commentary will help correct the double standard usually made by the media. This piece does not reflect the opinion of the Editorial Board nor of the Philippine College of Physicians:

"The phenomenon of Filipino physicians taking up nursing to find greener pastures in the United States, Britain and other countries has attracted media attention. Some of our colleagues have found this disturbing development to be amusing. Certainly, this is not funny to these doctors who had taken up nursing courses in their desire to go abroad. I anticipate this exodus to continue in the next few years, as the shortage of nurses overseas is projected to continue up to 2010. Surely, one can dismiss their motives as purely financial in nature and label them as devoid of nationalism, but that would be too harsh judgment on our part.

"To address the financial state of the medical profession, I went to the Bureau of Internal Revenue (BIR) to do my one-man team investigation.

Though admittedly not accurate, nevertheless, these figures will drive home the following points. Based on this information from the office of the Deputy Commissioner, the mean (average) annual gross income of self-employed physicians identified in the BIR database (excluding doctors who are employees of institutions and receiving fixed-salaries) for 2002 was P525,877.33 (P43,823.11 monthly). However, this mean average was not reflective of the real picture since the individual figures did not follow the bell-shaped pattern of distribution.

Thus, the median would be more representative. The median of the gross annual income for self-employed physicians in 2002 was P230,347.75 (P19,195.65 monthly). In layman's terms, around half of us doctors earn less than P20,000 monthly. For reference, our government estimates that a monthly income of P16,800 is needed for a family of 6 to meet the daily basic needs. This median gross annual income corresponds to $4,189, a miniscule amount in contrast to the yearly salary of a US licensed nurse that ranges between $50,000 to $100,000. These figures and analysis should serve as an eye-opener for the uninformed.

"Several teachers and educators of this country had sacrificed their profession to become domestic helpers abroad due to financial difficulties. The primary reason for this career shift from MD to RN abroad is obviously similar. However, it is not as humbling, since nursing, like medicine, is also a noble profession. Financial concerns and potential unstable future for the family are enough to drive them away to leave our shores for a better and secure future for their families. A few colleagues are very optimistic that this job will also serve as. . .a stepping stone to eventually becoming physician assistants or even licensed doctors abroad.

"There is the big issue of buying stocks in the big hospitals to obtain the privilege to practice. Lucky are those who have wealthy parents or spouses who can provide the millions of pesos to buy this privilege. How about those who are in the middle and lower income-class sector who have neither affluent parents nor spouses to shoulder the cost? Financial capability plays the major factor over good credentials and clinical skills at least in the first few years of clinical practice, though some may violently object to this statement. Is the medical community actually a microcosm of Philippine society, where wealth and influence determines a person's niche in society?

Our fortunate rich colleagues continue to get undue advantage over our "poor colleagues" because of money, influence, and nepotism.

The feeling of hopelessness in the context of the country's political uncertainty and stagnant economy is prevalent among the doctors. There are also fears of increasing malpractice suits and the need of compulsory malpractice insurance, likely consequences of the Medical Practice Bill if approved, leading to increasing costs of practice. A few doctors who had left were bold enough to cite local hospital politics, professional jealousy, the "my turf" concept, and greed as the "last straw that broke the camel's back," in defense of charges hurled at them of being unpatriotic and not nationalistic.

"The anemic economy has made the cost of a doctor's consultation or the price of the prescribed medications beyond the reach of the average Juan de la Cruz. For developing countries, the World Health Organization recommends the allotment of 5 percent of the Gross National Product (GNP) to health care programs. However, DOH sources reveal that only 3.5 percent of the GNP is budgeted by the national government for health annually. Is our government partly to blame for this exodus?

If only prevailing conditions (could) provide respectable pay, recognition of hard work, with the national government fostering assistance and support for our struggling colleagues, then we would not be pondering on this issue. Knowing why our colleagues left our shores should unite the medical profession, and for our national government to prioritize health and health professionals. Only then can we slow, if not stop, this hemorrhage and exodus of physicians to foreign shores.

yousev · Apr 29, 2004

I’ll not be an hypocrite. I want money. Everybody needs money in order to survive. Everybody is struggling hard to have a better future. Day by day, we become a risk-taker of every opportunity that we may or not anticipate to happen. But nevertheless, upon this continuing struggle for the betterment of our future, we forget to see a certain aspect of our life. Sometimes, it’s not always our "wants and needs" that really matters most in life. Sometimes, it’s not actually price-possessions that could make you a total human. It’s not just about the money… the luxuries and all that….. Or maybe let’s just say happiness and contentment is a perfection-personified or could mean a dream come true. But please don’t get me wrong. My opinion here is not to disparage the MD-RNs or everyone whom I may get offended.

My family is not rich. We eat 3x a day. I can have my midnight snacks anytime I wanted to. We only have one car. My parents have gone travelling outside the country. My brother was already in the US and I’m about to follow him perhaps this July. We got our multiple visa then. I’m just waiting for my judgement day on June for the local board exam. Some people here think that I’m lucky for acquiring that visa. Some would say I have gotten what others are trying so hard to get it. But actually, I never got what I really wanted to have. At some point in my life, I wanted to live this comatose country. But the other side of my heart wanted me to stay. I keep on wallowing over my deep despair upon leaving. I was thinking that this country is really like a comatose patient wanting to gain strength, to preserve itself from the atrocity of life’s opportunities. I’ve seen poor patients in a government hospital where I often times give my act of volunteerism. When I roamed around at dawn, I saw these patients’ relatives sleeping underneath the patients’ bed and my heart feels like throbbing. And I can never ever forget that scene. That made me to believe that our government was really such a heck (sorry for the term I used). The government’s trying so hard to help US forces in the Middle East wherein fact, there’s a greater growing problem here that needs to be solved.

The scenario that I’m seeing now tempts me to go far even farther from this place for I can’t help it being here looking at those poor creatures dying not because of the paucity of the medical professionals nor funds that should have long been sustained lives of the many sufferers but the blindness of each Filipino people to see the real problem. The problem should not be gauge on where to lie the complain or who did the cause but should be, what to do. I certainly believe now what Antoine de Saint Exupery says about the grown-ups…. They’re more on figures. Though we live by it, it should not always be the basis of success. Wherever and whoever a person is, if he would just learn the value of hardship, courage and perseverance, he can be a successful one.

And I don’t think comparing a domestic helper from that of a medical practitioner is right because they come from different professions with different types of clients to leave behind. I think it’s nicer to leave an elementary student (if the domestic helper is a teacher) or a bank that is about to close (if the domestic helper is a teller) than a million of terminally patients with whom the government had forgotten them. Who would take care of them then? You may perhaps philosophize with such a statement that doctors need to take care of their families to but allow me to finish with this one. Amongst all, a heart is more important than any other figures in this world. God will never ask His people with how many dollars you earned and left in the bank. He will never ask you how efficient you are as MD or as RN. What matters most to Him is your stewardship and not merely of leadership… on how you take good care of His suffering people. And for some, this statement might sound absurd but that’s supposed to be done. Though it was not amended by our constitutional law or any other law that it’s not wrong to think of your future, to think of your family, your career or what can a Php 16,000 and more or less could buy in a grocery store in a monthly or in a weekly basis. It’s not wrong to dream, to soar high in an outmost height one can weigh not even to act on your heart’s willingness. And it’s not wrong to think of others’ welfare also. It’s not being an altruistic or being too idealistic nor nationalistic…. It’s more than that. It’s more than an expedient reason one should not ignore.

"It’s only the eyes that can be blinded but never what heart is seeing" and if anyone of you would say I’m seeing a wrong overview over the other, it’s not my fault anymore, not even a fault of anybody… it’s what my heart utters in solitude.

What I wanted to say to the MD-RNs is that, as you try to satisfy and fulfill your human needs, please include your needy brethren in your dreams. Please try to make a glimpse at them not as an added income in your monthly wage or as a simple "figures" as grown-ups used to dealt with but as a human beings who just wanted to live just like you… who also have dreams to fulfill and a need to be mollified.

My family is not rich. We don’t have that big "figures" to offer. We can only offer prayers for the needy… for those people who wanted to live just like you. And how about you? What do you have in mind to offer to our fellow countrymen?

"One important reason why many people stop before they have attained success is because they entered the field more with a desire to make money thanbecause of an ingrained love for the work".

Rep · Apr 29, 2004

Do you think America is perfect?....ha-ha-ha! There are doctors here, too that treat nurses as servants, doctors that think nurses' ideas are stupid, doctors that shout and yell at nurses, throw charts to nurses. Have you ever seen a surgical clamp flying to the ceiling? We are all human. Human behavior comes from breeding, not from where you live.

I agree with you 100%! Mabuhay ang mga Nurses ( Long live the Nurses)!

Dr. Gonzo · Apr 29, 2004

i'm a lil bit worried that one day, we'll not be able to have a medical diagnosis on the chart and all but a nursing diagnosis for a fact that even doctors are taking up our course. what can u say about that? that it gives u any thought, same as i do? i'm really worried about our people.. other doctors are entering into our profession to gain profit and never mind their years of studying to gain more and more and more and more.....

I think doctors should do what they do best thats surgery and treating patient problems and Nurses should do what they do best thats nurse patients back to health dont doctors make enough money profiting off people's misery.

suzanne4, RN · Apr 29, 2004

They are talking about doctors from other countries, where their salaries are extremely low, about 10% or what a nurse makes in the US. :uhoh3:

smileystudent · Apr 30, 2004

yousev that brought tears to my eyes. My heart breaks for your country.

yousev · May 2, 2004

I’ll not be an hypocrite. I want money. Everybody needs money in order to survive. Everybody is struggling hard to have a better future. Day by day, we become a risk-taker of every opportunity that we may or not anticipate to happen. But nevertheless, upon this continuing struggle for the betterment of our future, we forget to see a certain aspect of our life. Sometimes, it’s not always our "wants and needs" that really matters most in life. Sometimes, it’s not actually price-possessions that could make you a total human. It’s not just about the money… the luxuries and all that….. Or maybe let’s just say happiness and contentment is a perfection-personified or could mean a dream come true. But please don’t get me wrong. My opinion here is not to disparage the MD-RNs or everyone whom I may get offended.

My family is not rich. We eat 3x a day. I can have my midnight snacks anytime I wanted to. We only have one car. My parents have gone travelling outside the country. My brother was already in the US and I’m about to follow him perhaps this July. We got our multiple visa then. I’m just waiting for my judgement day on June for the local board exam. Some people here think that I’m lucky for acquiring that visa. Some would say I have gotten what others are trying so hard to get it. But actually, I never got what I really wanted to have. At some point in my life, I wanted to live this comatose country. But the other side of my heart wanted me to stay. I keep on wallowing over my deep despair upon leaving. I was thinking that this country is really like a comatose patient wanting to gain strength, to preserve itself from the atrocity of life’s opportunities. I’ve seen poor patients in a government hospital where I often times give my act of volunteerism. When I roamed around at dawn, I saw these patients’ relatives sleeping underneath the patients’ bed and my heart feels like throbbing. And I can never ever forget that scene. That made me to believe that our government was really such a heck (sorry for the term I used). The government’s trying so hard to help US forces in the Middle East while in fact, there’s a greater growing problem here that needs to be solved.

The scenario that I’m seeing now tempts me to go far even farther from this place for I can’t help it being here looking at those poor creatures dying not because of the paucity of the medical professionals nor funds that should have long been sustained lives of the many sufferers but the blindness of each Filipino people to see the real problem. The problem should not be gauge on where to lie the complain or who did the cause but should be, what to do. I certainly believe now what Antoine de Saint Exupery says about the grown-ups…. They’re more on figures. Though we live by it, it should not always be the basis of success. Wherever and whoever a person is, if he would just learn the value of hardship, courage and perseverance, he can be a successful one.

And I don’t think comparing a domestic helper from that of a medical practitioner is right because they come from different professions with different types of clients to leave behind. I think it’s nicer to leave an elementary student (if the domestic helper is a teacher) or a bank that is about to close (if the domestic helper is a teller) than a million of terminally patients with whom the government had forgotten them. Who would take care of them then? You may perhaps philosophize with such a statement that doctors need to take care of their families to but allow me to finish with this one. Amongst all, a heart is more important than any other figures in this world. God will never ask His people with how many dollars you earned and left in the bank. He will never ask you how efficient you are as MD or as RN. What matters most to Him is your stewardship and not merely of leadership… on how you take good care of His suffering people. And for some, this statement might sound absurd but that’s supposed to be done. Though it was not amended by our constitutional law or any other law that it’s not wrong to think of your future, to think of your family, your career or what can a Php 16,000 and more or less could buy in a grocery store in a monthly or in a weekly basis. It’s not wrong to dream, to soar high in an outmost height one can weigh not even to act on your heart’s willingness. And it’s not wrong to think of others’ welfare also. It’s not being an altruistic or being too idealistic nor nationalistic…. It’s more than that. It’s more than an expedient reason one should not ignore.

"It’s only the eyes that can be blinded but never what heart is seeing" and if anyone of you would say I’m seeing a wrong overview over the other, it’s not my fault anymore, not even a fault of anybody… it’s what my heart utters in solitude.

What I wanted to say to the MD-RNs is that, as you try to satisfy and fulfill your human needs, please include your needy brethren in your dreams. Please try to make a glimpse at them not as an added income in your monthly wage or as a simple "figures" as grown-ups used to dealt with but as a human beings who just wanted to live just like you… who also have dreams to fulfill and a need to be mollified.

My family is not rich. We don’t have that big "figures" to offer. We can only offer prayers for the needy… for those people who wanted to live just like you. And how about you? What do you have in mind to offer to our fellow countrymen?

"One important reason why many people stop before they have attained success is because they entered the field more with a desire to make money thanbecause of an ingrained love for the work".

Pia76 · Aug 22, 2006

For Ma'am Suzanne,
What would i do if i'm like them? i'd rather do my stuff as a doctor than competing with the new BSN graduates. u might be thinking that i'm saying this because i'm one of those newly graduates hoping to find a better pose in this world but even perhaps i'm not in my position to think about that.. i'd probably say what i've said and is saying right now...though man is free to choose whatever road they want to take, i don't think it's clean and proper to jump over into the other if you're taste wasn't been satisfied with what u have... how can a doctor cure his patients if he doesn't have a passion for his job (that he was there because of money not because of the kind of service u ought to do)? how can an architect do well his job constructing a design for a building if he himself doesn't know really the road he's heading for? how could u entrust a case to a lawyer who cannot even think that he could defend the oppressed even without money involving to it (call it a charity)? what i'm saying here is that, everybody had a choice of entering into something pleasent for survival and i'm not taking that right away from those MDs... but i think it's obvious that they're more self-centered than anything else... simply for thinking more of themselves than those people who needed them most. who would take care of those people, left in the hands of a quak doctors? how could an MD be a caring nurse to a foreign land who had left his burdened patients in his country?

Yousev, u havent been exposed to the living conditons in the Philippines i think. If you are a doctor and u cant evben buy your own car, you cant even help your own family and you are having a hard time providing for your own family, wouldnt you think of a way to help yourself too? And it is not right to increase the level of difficulty of the nursing board exam just because they know that doctors are taking the exam too and they are dismayed because the doctors are the topnotchers. They should make an exam fit for nurses regardless of who are taking the exam. If anyone passed the exam for nurses then they are fit to be nurses regardless of their previous profession.

And i dont think the doctors took nursing courses because they want to compete with the regular students like you. They took it for their own reasons, to leave the country, work as foreign nurses. You are probably the one who felt you have to compete with them.