Why The Future of NP Practice Maybe A Two Edged Sword

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I was recently speaking with another master's prepared nurse who works in informatics about becoming an Acute Care NP and my experience as an NP student. Her immediate response was "why would you want to do exactly what the physician does for a dramatically reduced salary"? At first I was offended and was really peeved that a nurse would be so unsupportive of advanced practice nursing and gave her the long winded "why advanced practice nursing is awesome speech" but after a few days I gave thought to what she said.

In my area (NYC metro) NPs start as low as high $90k (RN start out at the same salary) and may hit maybe $160k at the top of the range, with a few outliers here and there. As a student I have witnessed how much work the acute care NP may contribute to a medical service and have seen the MD being the ''overseer'' on some units with the NP & PA managing quite sick patients and responsible for many emergent procedures such as intubation, central line placements.... Although I love the thought of being so involved in patient care I have wondered if NPs (specifically acute care) will be compensated more by facilities for our ever increasing scope of practice? I was surprised to see some services where the so called "midlevels" entirely manage extremely sick patients and the attending only appears when the patient is deteriorating.

I was also at a conference recently where some rural and highly experienced NPs stated that at times they were the only provider in a hospital overnight with maybe an ER doc, or that they managed emergencies on their own or as part of a team of NPs.

I'm wondering if this is part of a whole push by hospital executives to use advanced practice nurses as cheaper medical provider for cost savings.

This has dramatically altered my outlook as a soon to be graduate. I question if I want to be a ''forever resident'' performing all the scut work on the unit while only being payed a small fraction of what the attending (who seem to have the last say in regards to patient management) makes.

Acute care NPs diagnosing, managing, and running emergencies, also having to have the knowledge of a full fledged physician to only make 30-40% of what the attending makes sounds a bit troublesome to me. I still love the nursing profession, it's been my career home for 15 years but I do wonder if this is setting up to be a catch 22 with the corporate hospital system reaping massive benefits off of cheaper labor?

With the push for more autonomy and scope, will our salaries commensurate?

Just me theory.... what do you think?

Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro.

I believe that it is often optimal for schools to find clinical placement, but not always. In my case my school was in Evansville Indiana, and I live in Orlando. Had "they' found my clinical site it would have been just as likely that they would have placed me in Tampa, or perhaps "The Villages" as it they would have been to put me with the psychiatrist that I found in the Kissimmee area where I also worked. Now it is true that I had to write about a 150 personalized letters, visit about 10 offices personally, and talk to about 30 places who outright rejected me for one reason or another, but in the end I found a place that was congruent with my needs. My experience with my RN clinical sites (which were found by my school) was that there was minimal concern for my schedule or location (indeed many of my classmates had to quit their jobs even though we were to be an "evening" program for adult working students because the clinical sites secured did not facilitate their schedules). Thus, I prefer to keep the flexibility of finding clinical spots open to students while at the same time having schools that offer that option. I want the "biggest tent" with the most opportunity for the most diverse pool of RN's who wish to advance their careers.

Specializes in Family practice, emergency.

In some fields, the training and practice is vastly different. Our MD in a primary care FQHC said, "I can't believe I'm making nearly double what you make and the only difference is I can order home health and diabetic shoes." Hence, the primary care shortage. In a hospital setting, I think the difference is more significant, but that's not to say NP's are adequately paid - I took a slight pay cut when I went into practice as an NP. That being said, I had 10 years of experience in a well paying state, so I didn't suffer, but it's slightly insulting after all the work I did.

Specializes in Hospice and Palliative Care.

The bottom line as I see it is an NPs willingness to take a job where he or she is expected to function as the MD or DO, knowing there will be a pay disparity. So many "midlevels" (I know, many hate that term) want to show what they know and be completely independent. They jump at the chance to take on loads of responsibility. That's on you if you take that path. No one can argue that the education difference between physician and NP is huge. Eventually, a good NP can be a better PCP than an average or crappy physician but that is totally up to the individual, as is the choice of function. I choose to do what I am strong in and enjoy having someone else to refer to when something is out of my wheelhouse. Nurse practitioners and PAs, by virtue of education are indeed midlevel providers. I'm all for independent practice but within my comfort zone. If we take the midlevel educational route, we should be happy with the midlevel function and remuneration. We can still advocate for ourselves without holding ourselves out as something we are not.

On 1/27/2020 at 2:25 PM, Thanksforthedonuts said:

I don’t want to stir up a can of worms... but should LPNs and RNs or Medical assistants get paid cause they “like do they same thing”?
I know plenty of LPNs that can run circles around some RNs. But the scope and education is difference and, whether you want to admit it or not, being the higher educated one, you’ll see it either minutely or dramatically at times.

I remember having this discussion years ago with an LPN when I worked as an ADN in a long term acute care hospital. I explained that even with similar responsibilities the pay should not be equal. The RN has more education and has invested more time and money into achieving the designation. As an ADN at that time I fully supported BSN making more than me and MSN earning more etc.. The LPN and everyone along the chain has the opportunity to move their career forward with additional education and with that the expectation for increases in salary. To assume an NP and board certified intensivist should be paid the same is just ridiculous.

Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro.
On 5/2/2020 at 1:52 PM, time2go said:

The bottom line as I see it is an NPs willingness to take a job where he or she is expected to function as the MD or DO, knowing there will be a pay disparity. So many "midlevels" (I know, many hate that term) want to show what they know and be completely independent. They jump at the chance to take on loads of responsibility. That's on you if you take that path. No one can argue that the education difference between physician and NP is huge. Eventually, a good NP can be a better PCP than an average or crappy physician but that is totally up to the individual, as is the choice of function. I choose to do what I am strong in and enjoy having someone else to refer to when something is out of my wheelhouse. Nurse practitioners and PAs, by virtue of education are indeed midlevel providers. I'm all for independent practice but within my comfort zone. If we take the midlevel educational route, we should be happy with the midlevel function and remuneration. We can still advocate for ourselves without holding ourselves out as something we are not.

The pay disparity is especially vexing when insurance pays 85% of what MD’s get, but salaries are more like 50 percent in many markets. Why would I choose to get 15 to 20 minutes with patients and earn 100k when I can earn 200k and spend more like 30 minutes?

Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro.

Look at it this way. I work from (since Covid) home living in Florida but seeing clients in Washington State and earn about 70% of the $160.00 that my company is reimbursed for a 30 min Psych visit (call it about 150-200 per hour). However, if I worked for my preceptor down the road I would get about 110K per year (about 50% of the same per hour or less). Not only that but the place where I did clinical would require me to see at least THREE patients per hour and for each of them they would get about $120-140 from the insurance companies (in other works the company would gross between 300 and 400 per hour despite paying me much less). Why would any sane person opt for such an arrangement when an alternative existed that paid much better and afforded much more time with their patients?

Just now, myoglobin said:

Look at it this way. I work from (since Covid) home living in Florida but seeing clients in Washington State and earn about 70% of the $160.00 that my company is reimbursed for a 30 min Psych visit (call it about 150-200 per hour). However, if I worked for my preceptor down the road I would get about 110K per year (about 50% of the same per hour or less). Not only that but the place where I did clinical would require me to see at least THREE patients per hour and for each of them they would get about $120-140 from the insurance companies (in other works the company would gross between 300 and 400 per hour despite paying me much less). Why would any sane person opt for such an arrangement when an alternative existed that paid much better and afforded much more time with their patients?

From what I understand as an NP you can not see patients in a different state if you are licensed in another state...

Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro.
23 minutes ago, irvine123 said:

From what I understand as an NP you can not see patients in a different state if you are licensed in another state...

Please clarify what law you are referencing? You have to be licensed in the state where the client is located and you must have a DEA in the state you are prescribing controlled substances. In my case I am licensed in Washington, Arizona, Colorado and Florida as an RN and NP (PMHNP). My wife has practiced this way since 2016 (as have about 20 other NP's that she works with in many cases for more than a decade). In any case my point is that insurance companies compensate for our services at 85% to 100% of what they do MD's and yet pay is often more like 50% (or less) especially in states like Florida, Alabama, Georgia and other Southern states. Why, should NP's earn so much less when their services are PAID and compensated (to the companies) at rates that are roughly similar to physicians? Why not move (or practice) in a state such as Washington, Arizona, or Colorado (to name a few) where we have roughly equal practice authority?

Got ya...I see your licensed in mulitple states ty.

Specializes in Psych/Mental Health.
4 hours ago, myoglobin said:

Look at it this way. I work from (since Covid) home living in Florida but seeing clients in Washington State and earn about 70% of the $160.00 that my company is reimbursed for a 30 min Psych visit (call it about 150-200 per hour).

I wonder if that would cause an exodus of FL PMHNPs away from working for FL facilities (and patients), since almost everyone working outpatient are doing telepsych.

I mean..why would anyone work for a FL clinic telepsych when they can do the same for Washington state clients? Yes, they'll have to get licensed and work on a somewhat different schedule, but the pay differential is probably worth it.

On 1/27/2020 at 7:34 AM, Tegridy said:

You mean similar out comes for routine uncomplicated primary care. Aka run of the mill stuff that anyone could follow a guideline for. Most people still prefer physicians

You make it sound as if 17 months of writing papers And clinical hours is superior to a rigorous 7 year medicals education and residency

That's why you don't go to an online NP school...LOL

Literally surprised by the amount of people who are going to online NP school and don't have any knowledge of simple things like S2 S2. Some schools accept people with no acute care experience. There is a lady who has only been a nurse in a detention facility going to NP school. Let that sink in.

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