Supervisors at Abington Memorial Hospital in Philadelphia have explained that they sought only to avoid a confrontation when they told African American employees to stay out of a patient's room after a man ordered that no blacks assist in the delivery of his child.
Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct. 3, 2003
NAACP wants hospital supervisors punished
Local leaders call for Abington hospital to discipline those who told minority staffers to stay out of a patient's room.
Local NAACP leaders yesterday called on Abington Memorial Hospital to discipline supervisors who told minority employees to stay out of a patient's room after a man demanded that only white staffers assist in the delivery of his baby.
( By Oliver Prichard, Inquirer Staff Writer, 10/04/2003 03:01 AM EDT)
(Something went haywire with the computer, I type a line and it keeps posting the message)
What it's based on is going to depend on a variety of things. It's not going to be the same reason with each pt., so you're not going to clear answer for that one.
I did ask for a female nurse for an extremely personal reason. Typically I don't care what the nurse is be it race or gender, but that moment in time I was not comfortable with a male looking at me. And he completely understood.
Legal-wise, I didn't give a **** at the moment. That was not a moment to debate and argue over what's sex discrimination. His qualifications had nothing to do with my request.
OK, I understand your feelings, which is why I don't work on patients who want a female unless there are NO females present, this happens from time to time in small facilities. Now if you have those kinds of feelings, and you are soon to be a nurse, then why can't you understand someone else have them about someone else? What about the black patient who has had bad experiences with white people (or visa versa) and doesn't want the other race working on them? Put yourself in their place and suddenly the situation is alot more alike than you originally allowed for, isn't it? See it isn't always hatred that is the cause. Prejudice, maybe, but not hatred. You're not wanting a male to work on you was prejudice, despite any justification you felt at the time. So we're back to my original statement. Because it IS different case by case, if you allow it in one case, you MUST allow it all cases or can't allow it in any cases. The motivation of the patient is irrelevent. It doesn't matter if we are offended by their choices & motivations. Either ALL patients get a choice in who works on them or NONE of them do. So in the end, the situations ARE the same.
You're not wanting a male to work on you was prejudice, despite any justification you felt at the time.
Mmmmm no that was a one time deal, a very stressful situation, an quite honestly it was not a point at where I wouldn't have taken no for an answer. That is the only time I've ever specified for a male or female nurse. I was also 12 years old at the time. And for any other 12 year old in the same situation, I'd totally understand it. If not feeling comfortable with a man seeing me naked at that age is prejudiced, then it was, but when I think of it now, I think he knew it was a long shot to ask to examine me.
Mmmmm no that was a one time deal, a very stressful situation, an quite honestly it was not a point at where I wouldn't have taken no for an answer. That is the only time I've ever specified for a male or female nurse. I was also 12 years old at the time. And for any other 12 year old in the same situation, I'd totally understand it. If not feeling comfortable with a man seeing me naked at that age is prejudiced, then it was, but when I think of it now, I think he knew it was a long shot to ask to examine me.
C'Mon now. That is still a prejudice. Just like not liking egg plant (YUCK!) is a prejudice. Prejudice is a learned dislike & concurrent avoidance of things or people. You grew out of it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a prejudice. Some people just never grow out them and THAT is the crucial difference. If you weren't going to take no for answer answer, what makes you think less enlightened people will? If you don't think you should have been forced into having him work on you, why do you think others should be forced into having people they don't like working on them? Equality is a two edged sword, just because you don't like the way the other edge cuts, doesn't mean it isn't right. Did you know in North Carolina the law states that a nurse is nurse and gender cannot be a factor in hiring or assigning nursing work? The same wording applies to race. The doctor that hired me found that one out the hard way. So legally, the situations are the same. As far as I'm concerned they are morally the same as well.
Never had anything to grow out of, any other time the gender of the nurse was nothing to me, but just that ONE time, things were completely different and rightly so. That was not a moment to force me to do anything. And i said in the last line that it was a prejudice.
For example, if a 12 year old child was just raped by a man, and she is brought to the ER, and a nurse of the male gender approaches her to thoroughly examine her and she screams "NO", considering what she just went though and will have to go through, is that still going to be as much of a prejudice as someone who comes in and yells "that (insert racial slur here) ain't touchin me!"? That there, to me, is the difference.
Never had anything to grow out of, any other time the gender of the nurse was nothing to me, but just that ONE time, things were completely different and rightly so. That was not a moment to force me to do anything. And I said in the last line that it was a prejudice.
For example, if a 12 year old child was just raped by a man, and she is brought to the ER, and a nurse of the male gender approaches her to thoroughly examine her and she screams "NO", considering what she just went though and will have to go through, is that still going to be as much of a prejudice as someone who comes in and yells "that (insert racial slur here) ain't touchin me!"? That there, to me, is the difference.
As opposed to the white man who just had himself half beaten to death by a group of black men or visa versa? You can example this to death and still not make it right in one case and not the other.
No, to me that's not 'as opposed' and i'd understand that circumstance as well. And i won't example it anymore.
One kind of prejudice is not any easier than the other, but that still does not make them the exact same problem, because to me, racism tends to be based on hatred more often than gender bias is (or that's been my experience).
No, to me that's not 'as opposed' and I'd understand that circumstance as well. And I won't example it anymore.
One kind of prejudice is not any easier than the other, but that still does not make them the exact same problem, because to me, racism tends to be based on hatred more often than gender bias is (or that's been my experience).
I understand your response I really do. You have clearly stated your viewpoint.
I disagree and here is why: I have been a Nurse for 22 years. I am every bit as qualified as my female counterparts. I have been on the receiving end of gender discrimination, professionally, for 22 years. I have been denied work opportunities (L&D, post partum, etc...) based SOLEY on my gender. I have patients refuse to allow me to work on the base SOLEY on my gender. I have always been understanding of their concerns and complied when a female nurse was present. When I was the only nurse present, I provided the best nursing care I could provide after explaining the situation to the patient. Perhaps the patient had a religious or cultural aversion to a male working them. Well, let us use your hatred theory. Religious aversions are generally based in hatred of some other religion or group of people or society or culture. Cultural biases are merely group hatreds, usually based in religion. So if a patient refuses to allow a male to work on them for religious or cultural reasons, it is most likely hatred based. The fact that their religion tells them to hate does not make it acceptable.
Discrimination is discrimination, pure and simple. Gender or race based discrimination are both legally and morally wrong. The motivation of a patient is IRRELEVANT. If a patient is allowed to choose the gender of the nurse working on them then they are allowed to choose the race of the patient working on, legally and morally. That is why these situations are the same, legally and morally.
Sekar, I think that you state the case well for how bending to patient prejudice, in the long term leads to acceptance of that prejudice (by institutions and administrators) as being somehow legitimate.
Being a male nurse for almost as long as you, I would second what you say about the discrimination based on sex I have seen and felt during that time. Since male nurses don't make it a constant issue, the females in nursing seem to think that the discrimination must be rather minor and pretty well neutralized. Their attitude is... 'Well so what that men can't really get much opportunity to get into L&D or post partum.. that's really next to nothing.'
I would add though, that this aspect of the easily seen problem facing male nurses is only the more visible tip of the iceberg of gender prejudice we men face in working as nurses in hospitals, and other care settings. And that the other parts of this discrimination we face do seem virtually invisible to being fully understood by most women nurses. But let me now give it a brief try here in further explanation...
Male nurses face gender expectations that limit full participation in the profession, on multiple other levels than just the barriers that face us directly in entering 'women's health areas' of care delivery. We are seen by doctors, administrators, the public as a whole, and by female nurses, too, as not being FULLY appropriate partners in nursing when the professional imagery comes into play. In fact, when asked to rank male professions in status, male nurses are always ranked almost dead last in image by the public.
So where does that place male nurses when they apply for positions in more public promotional levels of the health system as a whole? Can the male nurse ever feel comfortable in most nursing settings? I think that the answer is a blunt...NO.
Take the example of many business hospitals where the doctors are coat and tie people, and the typical nurse is female and has demanded of them (by public and administrator). a .."Yes, Doctor, how can I help you?" attitude. A male nurse is a square peg trying to fit himself iton a hole in this sort of environment. Catering to the public prejudice and preference has created a hostile environment without an individual word ever being said to the male nurse.
In short, servility is considered female and part of nursing, whereas a man, just by being male and a nurse is an oddball, and one not really looked to to fill the position NURSE if it can be avoided. Exceptions being for mainly nursing positions dealing with drunks,lower caste/class psychotics, indigents, prisoners, comatose ICU vegies, head injury people, druggies, and all those patients at the municipal hospital overloaded with the non-insured. Rough settings, in other words.
Schools, clinics for the better off, home health,etc.... (nicer enviros and all those with public prejudice being of greater import), well the male nurse will face semi exclusion, or colder shouldersrather than being a fully welcome addition to the team.
In short, the medical system often presents itself about as invitingly for mainstream male participation in nursing, as the construction industry does for mainstream women workers gaining accpetance there in that male enviro. Muscles, instead of perceived suitability for servility, being the self evident public prejudice catered to in the building trades.
OK, I have diverged some from the principle thread topic, but so be it..... Just wanted to elaborate some on what I thought that Sekar was trying to communicate.
Nurse Hardee
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sekar quote..
I disagree and here is why: I have been a Nurse for 22 years. I am every bit as qualified as my female counterparts. I have been on the receiving end of gender discrimination, professionally, for 22 years. I have been denied work opportunities (L&D, post partum, etc...) based SOLEY on my gender. I have patients refuse to allow me to work on the base SOLEY on my gender. I have always been understanding of their concerns and complied when a female nurse was present. When I was the only nurse present, I provided the best nursing care I could provide after explaining the situation to the patient.>>
We also have to remember that patients are consumers buying a "product" if you will. They have the right to refuse treatments, advice, and the care of anyone they see fit. Frankly, it comes down to the patient's right, not "giving in"- this is an american right!! I , myself, chose a female OB to deliver my child, and would feel completly justified to refuse a male nurse- because that is my right as a patient. We as nurses also have the right to refuse patients- And that is our RIGHT!!
The time to address racist attitudes is not when the patient and their family are going through critical events. This just makes them mad and more convinced of the rightness of their views and attitudes.
If we deny care to people on that basis, or force them to accept something they do not want (which we know is against their rights as patients, and ALSO means we are basing the quality of our care on our judgment of them), then we are not being the best we can be.
It is through good example and the opportunity for our "goodness" as human beings to be shown through action to people we might hope to influence, that such change can occur.
It takes a long time, and we are not patient about waiting for something about which we feel passionate. But we need to remember that forcing our own values on others never did anything more than cement them in their own.
The media may or may not understand this, depending on whether they adhere to the values of THEIR profession......
I have been a male nurse since 1984. I agree with chris_at_lucas. It makes me upset that Abington reacted the way they did, but this family was in crisis. In retrospect I think the administration really may have did a disservice to everyone involved, but hindsight is 100 %. During the crisis maybe it was the ideal time to teach this family about prejudice. Then again maybe not.
I question if patients should have the right to refuse care from certain nurses. I just don't know.
Years ago in Dallas I responded to a call bell from a little old lady who was in the bathroom. She looked at me and said: " I need a nurse, I mean a real nurse!!". I went and got a female nurse. Lady later got to know me and wrote a letter to the administration commending my skills and professional attitude. I still have the letter.
We also have to remember that patients are consumers buying a "product" if you will. They have the right to refuse treatments, advice, and the care of anyone they see fit. Frankly, it comes down to the patient's right, not "giving in"- this is an american right!! I , myself, chose a female OB to deliver my child, and would feel completly justified to refuse a male nurse- because that is my right as a patient. We as nurses also have the right to refuse patients- And that is our RIGHT!!
I understand what you are saying but realistically this idea of healthcare as a "product" can't work. what if all the patients on one floor want the same nurse? or none of the patients on the floor will accept a male nurse, or a black nurse etc...? a hospital (or any business for that matter) can't run effectively if they can't make up assignments for their staff because of patients preferences. A patient has rights and those rights include agreeing to the policy of the hosptial (accepting competent, qualified care providers), or exercising their right to leave.
Sekar
140 Posts
OK, I understand your feelings, which is why I don't work on patients who want a female unless there are NO females present, this happens from time to time in small facilities. Now if you have those kinds of feelings, and you are soon to be a nurse, then why can't you understand someone else have them about someone else? What about the black patient who has had bad experiences with white people (or visa versa) and doesn't want the other race working on them? Put yourself in their place and suddenly the situation is alot more alike than you originally allowed for, isn't it? See it isn't always hatred that is the cause. Prejudice, maybe, but not hatred. You're not wanting a male to work on you was prejudice, despite any justification you felt at the time. So we're back to my original statement. Because it IS different case by case, if you allow it in one case, you MUST allow it all cases or can't allow it in any cases. The motivation of the patient is irrelevent. It doesn't matter if we are offended by their choices & motivations. Either ALL patients get a choice in who works on them or NONE of them do. So in the end, the situations ARE the same.