Why Is There A Shortage?

rstewart · Jan 17, 2004

Originally posted by lizz
Well, I've asked this before. So I guess it won't hurt to ask again.

What would those altnernatives be?

Perhaps your need for repetition is not fueled by a lack of response but rather a failure to listen. A couple of posts ago I distinctly remember offering 3-4 health care occupation alternatives whose preparation requires 2-4 years of post-secondary education.

Or how about perfusionist school, or anesthesiologist assistant programs?.... Then there is occupational therapy and until 2 years ago one could find appropriately accredited bachelors programs in physical therapy. Then there are Physician Assistant programs but better hurry because bachelor programs are declining in favor of masters preparation and in fact may not be available in your state.

I could go on. And keep in mind that I have mentioned only health related occupations off the top of my head. I am sure that there are many others which meet the "less mental and physical stress than nursing" test.

piper_for_hire · Jan 17, 2004

Thanks! Are there any more you can think of? I intend to get a master's degree after I finish up my BSN next year and I'm excited to see what all of the options are besides Nurse Practitioner, which was my original plan.

-S

Sheri257 · Jan 17, 2004

Originally posted by rstewart
Perhaps your need for repetition is not fueled by a lack of response but rather a failure to listen. A couple of posts ago I distinctly remember offering 3-4 health care occupation alternatives whose preparation requires 2-4 years of post-secondary education.

Perhaps you haven't read the subsequent threads/posts after that discussion. As you pointed out, 2-4 more years of post secondary education takes awhile. If we're talking about anesthetist programs as an example, it could actually take much longer. There are only two AA schools in the country and, if I'm not mistaken, they're only licensed in six, maybe seven states. So the only real alternative is MDA or, the more feasible CRNA, which usually requires:

A bachelor's degree, additional pre-reqs, and at least a year (preferably more) of ICU experience (not to mention the GRE and stellar grades/scores). And, after all of that, there's still no guarantee of program acceptance even if you meet all requirements.

Of course, you still have to work as a nurse to obtain your ICU experience. Funny how you wouldn't be able to achieve that goal, and obtain more job satisfaction (as demonstrated by the previously mentioned survey), if you followed some of the advice on this thread and got out of nursing all together.

I was asking for other, more immediate, job alternatives within the time frame of a basic nursing education. As I've pointed out on other threads, I'm not independently wealthy. I can afford to subsidize my education for awhile, but not forever. Like most people, I still have to pay bills.

Sheri257 · Jan 17, 2004

Originally posted by athomas91
lizz,
as a student nurse - you should not be asking seasoned nurses "what to do" whether it be get out or make it better

You misunderstood the point of the post. Some people were saying their jobs sucked and students should get out. When I asked why they didn't get out themselves, the same posters said they were sticking it out to try to make their profession better.

The point of my post wasn't so much asking "what to do," but to point out the inherent contradictions in both statements.

Quite frankly, I think people just need to vent, which is fine. I just hope students don't take these posts too seriously.

rstewart · Jan 17, 2004

Originally posted by lizz
Perhaps you haven't read my other posts. As you pointed out, 2-4 more years of post secondary education takes awhile. And, if we're talking about anesthetist programs as an example, it could actually take much longer since a bachelor's, additional pre-reqs, and at least a year (preferably more) of ICU experience -- as a nurse, of course -- is usually required (not to mention the GRE) -- with no guarantee of acceptance into the program.

And, you still have to work as a nurse to obtain your ICU experience. Funny how you wouldn't be able to achieve that goal if you followed some of the advice on this thread and got out of the profession all together.

I was referring to other, more immediate, job alternatives. And, as I've pointed out on other threads, like most people, I'm not independently wealthy. I can afford to subsize my education for awhile, but not forever. Like most people, I still have to pay bills.

It appears that you are unaware that post- secondary means the post middle/high school level. So what I was referring to was occupations which require education at the Associate-Bachelor degree level (i.e. the same level of education required to be a nurse/a comparable alternative).

You have also confused the Anesthesiologist Assistants (AA) which I mentioned with nurse anesthesists (CRNAs). You need not be a nurse to work as an AA. You do need a BA.

In any event it was not my intent to malign the nursing profession, per se. Rather I take issue with those who refuse to acknowledge the serious problems facing the profession, particularly at the bedside. Or those who behave as though a failure by the bedside nurse to identify or provide solutions to those problems lies at the heart of the so-called nursing shortage.

Beyond that, I strongly take issue with those who say it is hypocritical to advise others to consider alternatives to nursing yet continue to practice nursing themselves. You bemoan the high cost of education in time and money, but then can not appreciate how a nurse might feel entrapped after going into debt for a nursing education only to find out that the work of nursing is too stressful physically and/or mentally.

I am not without sympathy for today's workforce. Things have changed dramatically in my lifetime. Nursing was not a first or even a second career for me and when the fortunes of one occupation changed it was much easier for me to make career changes. It seems the length of required training/education is increasing for just about every occupation and the cost of that training is staggering. I am shocked at the amount of debt many of my younger coworkers bring to their first job.

I do not have the answers; I am not sure there ARE any answers. Things are change so very rapidly. Not so long ago Information Technology, computer programming etc was a ticket to financial security; with the rapid escalation of off-shoring that is no longer the case. Prior to that becoming an investment banker was a sure ticket to the good life. Not anymore. Or I mentioned being a perfusionist in a previous post. Now all the perfusionists I work with are doing very very well----but with the advances in stenting, off pump surgeries etc. who knows how long that will continue to be the case?

The point is things have gotten complicated and it's a not so easy to "turn on a dime" careerwise to respond. The working conditions of the bedside nurse have gotten progressively worse over the years. When nurses complain about those conditions I would ask that you consider that they just might be telling you the truth. Further, they would leave the profession if their life circumstances were different. They certainly do not deserve the hypocrite label.

Sheri257 · Jan 17, 2004

Originally posted by rstewart
You have also confused the Anesthesiologist Assistants (AA) which I mentioned with nurse anesthesists (CRNAs). You need not be a nurse to work as an AA. You do need a BA.

Actually, I noticed that and edited my post. There are only two AA programs in the country and, if I recall correctly, only six/seven states license them. So, for all practical purposes, CRNA is the only anethetist program alternative for most people (besides MDA, of course.)

Sheri257 · Jan 17, 2004

Originally posted by rstewart
I do not have the answers; I am not sure there ARE any answers. Things are change so very rapidly. Not so long ago Information Technology, computer programming etc was a ticket to financial security; with the rapid escalation of off-shoring that is no longer the case. Prior to that becoming an investment banker was a sure ticket to the good life. Not anymore. Or I mentioned being a perfusionist in a previous post. Now all the perfusionists I work with are doing very very well----but with the advances in stenting, off pump surgeries etc. who knows how long that will continue to be the case?

The point is things have gotten complicated and it's a not so easy to "turn on a dime" careerwise to respond. The working conditions of the bedside nurse have gotten progressively worse over the years. When nurses complain about those conditions I would ask that you consider that they just might be telling you the truth. Further, they would leave the profession if their life circumstances were different. They certainly do not deserve the hypocrite label.

I totally agree with this, BTW. The same problems you have just described apply to both students and working nurses who can't change careers.

As the computer and investment banking examples demonstrate, everything is a gamble. But at least the nursing jobs are there and are projected to grow over the next 20 years.

In the end, for better or for worse, all you can do is go where the projected job growth is. After you've been laid off and downsized a few times, you're just looking for a job with some kind of stability and demand, no matter how "bad" it is.

So when people say, "Just get out," it does tend to be very frustrating because it's incredibly difficult to figure out where else to go. This is the point I have been trying to make all along.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by rstewart
Originally posted by lizz
I do see your point rstewart.

That is why statements like "Get Out" and "Run for the Hills" deserve scrutiny. Not to mention the fact that some of the people who say these things haven't "gotten out" themselves and remain in nursing which, quite frankly, is a bit hypocritical.

I had hopes that you had seen my point, however, after reading the above quote, I fear that is not the case.

Those nurses who you refer to as "hypocritical" are sharing their experiences from their perspectives; true, there may be an element of venting, but they have nothing to gain otherwise. Rather, they are offering additional information for those outside of the field to scrutinize. Keep in mind there are many stakeholders who have a vested interest in making the nursing profession appear as attractive as possible; Further, those same stakeholders also have the resources to get their story out.

Life circumstances may limit the realistic alternatives for those nurses who direct others away from the profession. When teen moms advise peers to use contraception, or prisoners tell youthful offenders to stop screwing up, or lung cancer survivors give testimony to others during anti-smoking campaigns they are not being hypocrites. Rather, they are saying ____ has made my life more difficult. Learn from my experience so that it doesn't happen to you.

Although I am still in nursing, I would not encourage most people to go to nursing school. In my view, more attractive alternatives are available to students who are intelligent enough to make good nurses. And unfortunately, it is also my opinion that despite all the rhetoric, there will be few significant positive changes in the foreseeable future due to financial constraints.

Excellent, excellent post, rstewart! I hope it sinks in!

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by rstewart
...........In any event it was not my intent to malign the nursing profession, per se. Rather I take issue with those who refuse to acknowledge the serious problems facing the profession, particularly at the bedside. Or those who behave as though a failure by the bedside nurse to identify or provide solutions to those problems lies at the heart of the so-called nursing shortage.

Beyond that, I strongly take issue with those who say it is hypocritical to advise others to consider alternatives to nursing yet continue to practice nursing themselves. You bemoan the high cost of education in time and money, but then can not appreciate how a nurse might feel entrapped after going into debt for a nursing education only to find out that the work of nursing is too stressful physically and/or mentally.

.................... The working conditions of the bedside nurse have gotten progressively worse over the years. When nurses complain about those conditions I would ask that you consider that they just might be telling you the truth. Further, they would leave the profession if their life circumstances were different. They certainly do not deserve the hypocrite label.

rstewart-:kiss

Sheri257 · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by rstewart
Life circumstances may limit the realistic alternatives for those nurses who direct others away from the profession. When teen moms advise peers to use contraception, or prisoners tell youthful offenders to stop screwing up, or lung cancer survivors give testimony to others during anti-smoking campaigns they are not being hypocrites. Rather, they are saying ____ has made my life more difficult. Learn from my experience so that it doesn't happen to you.

Since Hellllllo Nurse brought this quote up again, I'd just like to point out that prisoners usually can't get out of prison once they are there, and lung cancer survivors usually can't change the fact that they had lung cancer.

A nurse has more choices and more control over their life than than a prisoner or person with lung cancer. They can do something about their circumstances. You guys have said this yourself by citing stats on the licensed nurses who aren't working in nursing anymore. Sure it can be difficult but, apparently, it can be done and has been done before.

Hellllllo Nurse: You've acknowledged that working conditions in California are better because of the CNA union, and that you don't have a union in your state. Yet you continue to discourage student nurses, like myself, who might be in a different situation. Why do this if your particular situation doesn't necessarily apply to all student nurses?

[CRNA]Giovanni · Jan 18, 2004

There's a shortage because the baby boomers are getting too old and they're all falling out...on top of that, most nursing programs are pretty selective, even for just a 2 year RN...duh

RN Rotten Nurse · Jan 18, 2004

There are plenty of nurses. There just aren't plenty of nurses that actually work. Many of them just draw a paycheck and walk around with a coffee cup in there hands. If all the nurses in a hospital on any given day actually 'took care of patients' there would not be a shortage.