Why not have done PA???

bethem · Sep 2, 2007

I know it's different in America, but in Australia the NPs have to have experience before they start the program. I have been looking at the program for when I meet the experience requirements (5 years, roughly!) and it seems like there is a LOT of self-directed study. I also think that the kind of people who go for NP are the kind who are curious and interested in learning, and seek out their own learning pportunities.

amzyRN · Sep 6, 2007

I think it has to do with the relevant information. I think that some of the science classes are a little unnecessary and that NP school gives the essentials of science rather than the broad range of sciences offered in med school and PA school. Also, NP education is more focused on the entire person rather than physiological processes. I was a science major in college and I did a bunch of math, physics, organic chemistry, etc... and I think a lot of it is not essential to nursing or even to medicine. I am glad that I did those classes and all, but they are not essential to my future career as a nurse and they wouldn't be essential if I were a doctor either.

J

core0 · Sep 6, 2007

hello I was wondering if anyone here has seen the classes PA student take. I found it to be a lot like the MD classes. I also looked at NP and they don't have much other than the sciences of advance patho. I don't get it. WHere do you guys get the knowledge??? I know a few NP's and they know so much but where do they learn cause some of them just went straight through BSN to their MS and didn't even work.
Pa's do Anatomy, dissections, Pathology, Enbryology, all the rotations?? I guess I am confuse any one can some how explain how NP's know so much. I know stupid question but I had to ask

I'll give the PA perspective. PAs are the generalists. Very much like the old GPs. PA training has to prepare the PA for any field of medicine. 25% of PAs work in surgery, 35% of so work in specialty care and about 40% work in primary care. PA training mimics physician training to give the PA student exposure to all parts of medicine so they are minimally competent to work in any field.

Anatomy and Physiology from the medical point of view are the cornerstones of evidence based medicine. Even embryology is occasionally helpful. PA training is very carefully laid out to make sure every student has some of the same training. The beauty of the process is that there is still room for programs to individualize also.

David Carpenter, PA-C

ICRN2008, BSN, RN · Sep 6, 2007

In my program, there are only two courses that have "science" sounding names (physiology and pharm), but all courses have some science content. Most NP programs require at least a year of nursing experience prior to starting clinicals, and much can be learned from this time if you put forth the effort.

I have found that in both undergraduate and graduate nursing programs (as opposed to my previous, science-based undergrad degree), the faculty are much less likely to spoon-feed students even the essential information. You are responsible for learning on your own, and you must go to the professor if you are having difficulties with the material. This works well for mature, self-directed learners, but some of the younger students in my program struggled with this method of teaching.

ICRN2008, BSN, RN · Sep 6, 2007

I might add that there are very few NPs who work in surgery. NP programs also tend to be more specialized (acute care vs primary care, specific populations, etc.) Since there is less breadth in most programs, we are able to focus more intensively on our area of study. This also leaves more time for other subjects such as research, health care policy, etc.

ICRN2008, BSN, RN · Sep 6, 2007

One more thing- the first year of the PA program in my area covers subjects such as anatomy, physiology, micro, lab medicine, etc. These courses are also covered in most undergraduate nursing programs. The nice thing about NP programs is that they can count on a consistent level of undergraduate preparation from all prospective MSN candidates. The same cannot be said for PAs- though I would argue that their rich and varied experiences prior to becoming PAs is an advantage in and of itself.

core0 · Sep 6, 2007

One more thing- the first year of the PA program in my area covers subjects such as anatomy, physiology, micro, lab medicine, etc. These courses are also covered in most undergraduate nursing programs. The nice thing about NP programs is that they can count on a consistent level of undergraduate preparation from all prospective MSN candidates. The same cannot be said for PAs- though I would argue that their rich and varied experiences prior to becoming PAs in an advantage in and of itself.

From what I have seen of BSN programs I do not think that you are talking about the same depth. Remember that even if the PA student does not have a degree they still need basic sciences such as A&P, chemistry, etc before PA school. These would be the equivalent to what you seen in a BSN program. My anatomy had cadaver lab which is rare in undergraduate. Physiology was on par with graduate physiology not the 400 level I had in undergrad. Whole different apple so to speak.

David Carpenter, PA-C

santhony44, MSN, RN, NP · Sep 6, 2007

I was a nurse 14 years before becoming a NP; LPN, ADN, BSN.

I can't speak for people with no nursing experience, but for myself, I couldn't have done it without the experience. There's a lot of knowlege you don't get in school.

And, of course, you never stop learning, both through CE, conferences, and other formal learning situations and through less formal situations.

I will agree with the poster who said that a lot of us are people who are curious and interested in learning and who seek out knowledge and information and learning opportunities.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Sep 7, 2007

Very true santhony44. I think it has been mentioned before that many of us who had plenty of RN experience prior to becoming NP's depend a great deal on the things we learned as nurses in our current practice. In addition, even though we do have training that cover many medical approaches during our clinical courses and rotations, a lot of what we know now were learned on the job or through continuing education. You can never say you already know enough.

I do have to also say that I wish I had my anatomy classes a little more recent than I did because NP school does cover Physiology to an extent but very little Anatomy. As an NP in a surgical specialty, I frequently find myself grabbing anatomical charts to brush up on where body landmarks are when inserting a difficult central line, chest tube, and such. Wish I had actually dissected a cadaver just like David did in his PA program. By the way David, sometimes there's some variation in the quality of Anatomy classes for PA's depending on the school. I work with one PA who said that she didn't have much exposure to cadaver dissections because her school also had medical students who were given first dibs over the cadavers in the Anatomy lab.

ICRN2008, BSN, RN · Sep 7, 2007

From what I have seen of BSN programs I do not think that you are talking about the same depth. Remember that even if the PA student does not have a degree they still need basic sciences such as A&P, chemistry, etc before PA school. These would be the equivalent to what you seen in a BSN program. My anatomy had cadaver lab which is rare in undergraduate. Physiology was on par with graduate physiology not the 400 level I had in undergrad. Whole different apple so to speak.
David Carpenter, PA-C

Actually, I think that it depends on the university. At the school where I did my undergrad degree, the (bachelor's degree) PA students took the same A&P and pathophysiology courses as the BSN, CLS, PharmD and OT students. The only difference was that they took a cadaver anatomy lab (with the OT students). These students also used the cadavers after the med students were done with them.

labcat01, BSN, RN · Sep 8, 2007

I think the OP makes a good point. When you compare the curriculum of an NP program vs a PA program, the PA programs seems organized and well structured. Also, the clinical placements seem to make more sense (I still don't understand how this works in an NP program). I really would prefer to be an NP rather then a PA because I see the NP as being a natural extension of nursing however, the idea of taking MORE classes on nursing theory gives me the chills.

Keep sharing your thoughts and enlighten this poor confused student :)