Who is to blame for the CA BON mess and a solution?

[geegeebaby82]

Hi, to all my fellow kabayans out there! I have been following these topics for almost a year now and so saddened by the current state of affairs that has been troubling all of us in dealing with the issues with the CA BON.

I too along with several of my batchmates with either having the same concurrency problem or not enough hours in those certain courses to satisfy the CA BON requirements. Even their friends from other Phils colleges are in the same boat and everyone trying to get their ATT, some having been denied twice, told that to meet the minimum requirements going to a US approved college will help get us thru, etc.

From all my readings here on this site, who is to blame in this crisis we are all facing?

-- The CA BON? NO, we are in their territory, we have to meet their requirements, their rules, their regulations, their minimums. So many of our batchmates and their friends have been reapplying twice or more times or not even having to be able to get a chance to take the NCLEX exam.

-- The CA evaluators/analyst? NO, they are only doing their job. They must also enforce and apply the same rules/regulations to not only us but to any applicants, be they from a local to other states to other overseas countries) wanting to get licensed in CA. If, not, then they could lose their jobs and in this economy, it would be very hard to find another type of job they have working with the CA BON and still put food on the table or pay for the lights in their living places.

-- CA rules and regulations? NO, it's been there for many years from my understanding in other posts here, we're not going to change their rules or requirements. There has been NO recent changes or additions to their requirements, only the current enforcement of the ones already in place for years. There's no reason for them to accomodate us and with understanding as there's no longer any more nursing shortage in CA or in 99% of the US. Too many US unemployed nurses everywhere and very little available job openings that doesn't need experience and more so, if so many of us are new grads.

On another note: one of my friend's has a good family member who is from Phils and a practicing CA lawyer for over 16 years, he is not an employment nor labor attorney, he is in business and taxation ligitation, but as a favor to her, he was asked about the CA BON denial letters received of the concurrence and insufficient hours requirements, after several months of inquiries and investigation, it was of his professional opinion, that the CA BON stands correct in their position and that legally, we "don't have any legal grounds to stand on". The advice of either trying to find some kind of remedial classes or re-taking of a complete CA approved nursing program is the best and main option open to us affected. He also finds it very suspicious of those applicants getting their ATT and others being denied from the same batchmates, same schooling, same instructors and could result in future legal action taken against them for "knowingly and willfully submitting false information" to the CA BON, even if the RN licensee claims he/she didn't know it was not the truth. There is NO limitation that the CA BON could revoke or suspend the CA license even if endorsed to another state. What is worst is if other state has severe financial or other penalties, they can enforce it and could be much worse than in CA.

　

So who is to BLAME?

-- Our own colleges and universities? YES, a definite yes! I have a very good and reliable source from one of our batchmate's relative/father who is very well associated to the CHED. They (CHED) have always known of these same minimum CA BON requirements for many years. But they have always thought that why fix our own country's nursing management and philisophies if it's not broken and we're not obligated to our Phils to move on to the US, even though, it's understood there's a very high percentage will be leaving Phils and mostly to CA, but that's their problem, not ours. Well, it is now! It's now insane to attend a Phils college if anyone today wants to get a nursing job in CA.

They never imagined that one day the CA BON would clamp down on their requirements. It was always preached to them (not from the US side, but from so many of the members of the CHED) that with the nursing shortages in CA and all over the States, they could keep teaching new nurses to meet the growing demand in the States. However, it's been a real problem in the States since 2009, but CHED didn't want to believe that or did believe it but wanted to keep the process going and why alert the students already enrolled and wanting to enroll, maybe the problem will be washed away.

-- Ourselves? YES and no. We should have known that even though, many of the Phils are accredited and some are even ISO-certified, but it means nothing to the outside of the walls of the Phils borders. Yes, it's true that we are just poor students studying hard every day and night, having so much stress and worries for 4 years, finding ways to pay for our education, our families making the tough sacrifices both emotionally and financially, giving up many good times that our other non-nursing friends enjoyed, but figured it will be worth the long sacrifices once we get a job in the States.

-- Global recession? YES. From what we read in the other topics here, many of the older US nurses cannot afford to quit their jobs now due to so many have lost so much money in their retirement banks, many nurses have to come back to work and reactive their US license so they can make more money either due to their own spouses are unemployed or have had some changes in their lives and need to come up with some extra money, so in all of this, many are not leaving their jobs or have refilled them and leaves no more empty spots to be filled. With the US unemployment rate so high, many cannot longer afford the health insurance or have lost it completely and much less patients coming in to see a doctor, so many sick people and their family members don't have the financial means to pay for the medical cost, which in turn, helps to pay the nurses.

So guys, we can no longer depend on getting a license in CA or in other states that are affected by this, much less find a good job in the States like years before. My batchmates and many others we know are being more realistic now and understand we just need to pack up, move on and find some other states to apply into or even other countries. Maybe there still might be a few of us that will get pass and be able to pass the NCLEX the first time in CA. We are all tired from getting those rejection letters!

Some of my batchmates have heard that other US states may soon do what the CA BON has been enforcing, if it is already the other state's requirements, which is only going to squueze all of us into a tighter area.

Solution(s):

-- I don't have any of the immediate problems, maybe others do here?

-- I think once the US economy does get better one of these years, we'll hopefully be employed in the other states and able to come back to CA (which honestly is about another high percentage of Phils grads wanting to work in CA due to family, weather, salaries, etc) with years of experience and then, maybe then, we'll truly have the nursing shortage that is so hyped up in the media and in our schools.

-- Hope that if a big nursing shortage does happen later on, the CA BON will be able to "bend" the rules for us.

Well, I have vented long enough, what do you guys think? We can do this, but probably not in CA for the present time.

[Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN]

I think this post hit the nail on the head. While going to another state for licensure, may work for some students, issues are going to continues.

A. Why did so many US Students and legal residents ( since you need a SS number) leave the US to get an education. While I realize cost is a factor, the BON will question what corners may have been cut to provide an education so cheaply.

B. The high rate of failures on the initial NCLEX. Not passing the NCLEX on the first attempt is looked as a failure by all Boards of Nursing. The more applicants that fail are looked at carefully.

C. I am surprised that other states are allowing students to take the NCLEX when they were denied in another state. I wonder if these applicant are answering honestly that they were denied in CAlifornia.

D. I don't think CA will relax this rule. So many US students fail because they have difficultly passing clinical and theory at the same time, if they allow the foreign students to pass they US Students can appeal their failures.

E. I feel sorry for the foriegn student who were sold a bill a goods, I do feel that California should have addressed this issue long before so many were effected. For example if they had the 3 times are you fail rule, this issue wouid have bubbled to the top sooner.

[Corey Narry, MSN, RN, NP]

Different groups of applicants who share similar characteristics are affected by this development:

1. US citizens and US residents who went to the Philippines to study nursing and are now considered IEN's and are applying for ATT in order to take the NCLEX-RN and be licensed in California for the first time. Regardless of their reasons to go overseas for a nursing degree, they are now faced with a likely denial from the BRN. The expression hindsight is 20/20 is all I can think of. But if one was a smart student who did well in school, went to one of the good schools in the Philippines, I don't see why they would not pass the NCLEX-RN if they apply in another state. The fact is California is so saturated with nurses so even if they are allowed to be licensed here, finding a job would be an extreme hurdle to take. My advice to the this group: look to get licensed in another state and find a job there once you get licensed.

2. US citizens and US residents who went to the Philippines to study nursing and have taken the NCLEX-RN in the past but have failed and are now denied reapplication for an ATT because they are affected by this new development. To those who failed once before, I'd say try again in another state. There is no rule anywhere that says you can't try again. However, if you have failed the NCLEX-RN more than once before, I think it's time to reassess your fit for the nursing profession. You owe it to the consumers to prove your competence as an entry-level nurse and if you can't pass the NCLEX-RN on your first two attempts, you lose credibility for the education you received and your own intellectual capacity as a prospective nursing professional.

3. Philippine nationals who have not been to the US and are considering California as a destination for a job in the future and are thinking of getting a license here. The "No SSN No Exam" pretty much took care of that. But I just have to say this: PLEASE READ UP ON CALIFORNIA'S RULES AND QUIT ASKING ON THIS BOARD ABOUT APPLYING TO CALIFORNIA WITHOUT A SSN.

[Corey Narry, MSN, RN, NP]

Hi, to all my fellow kabayans out there! I have been following these topics for almost a year now and so saddened by the current state of affairs that has been troubling all of us in dealing with the issues with the CA BON.

I too along with several of my batchmates with either having the same concurrency problem or not enough hours in those certain courses to satisfy the CA BON requirements. Even their friends from other Phils colleges are in the same boat and everyone trying to get their ATT, some having been denied twice, told that to meet the minimum requirements going to a US approved college will help get us thru, etc.

-- Our own colleges and universities? YES, a definite yes! I have a very good and reliable source from one of our batchmate's relative/father who is very well associated to the CHED. They (CHED) have always known of these same minimum CA BON requirements for many years. But they have always thought that why fix our own country's nursing management and philisophies if it's not broken and we're not obligated to our Phils to move on to the US, even though, it's understood there's a very high percentage will be leaving Phils and mostly to CA, but that's their problem, not ours. Well, it is now! It's now insane to attend a Phils college if anyone today wants to get a nursing job in CA.

They never imagined that one day the CA BON would clamp down on their requirements. It was always preached to them (not from the US side, but from so many of the members of the CHED) that with the nursing shortages in CA and all over the States, they could keep teaching new nurses to meet the growing demand in the States. However, it's been a real problem in the States since 2009, but CHED didn't want to believe that or did believe it but wanted to keep the process going and why alert the students already enrolled and wanting to enroll, maybe the problem will be washed away.

Actually, back when I was a nursing student in the Philippines during the late 80's and early 90's, the schools had a rule that no student will advance to the next level without having completed the required number of Nursery, Delivery Room, and OR cases. We completed the actual and 1st assist delivery and newborn cord dressing cases in the 2nd Year while Maternal-Child Health lectures are given and do not start 3rd third year if we have not completed our cases. Some students even take remedial summer term to complete the cases. The same way, we did not advance to 4th Year if we didn't complete all our 1st assist OR cases in the 3rd Year when Med-Surg lectures are given. Back then, some schools were having trouble with complying with this requirement but at the time, our school told us that it was the Board of Nursing that had this strict requirement. Things must have loosened up at some point.

[kayakoto]

@ geegeebaby82: i think some of our kababayan were given eligibility because others applied prior to when the new rules was implemented.

and ginger's mom said:

i am surprised that other states are allowing students to take the nclex when they were denied in another state.

i wonder if these applicant are answering honestly that they were denied in california.

- my answer for you is that different states have different rules and regulations and with other agency like cgfns that is being use to evaluate each applicant credentials...it seems you want all ien not be given the chance to sit for nclex..and now youre wondering if the applicant are answering honestly that we were denied?..come on we all know that being or getting denied by the cabon is not the end of the world for us filipino nurse/ien...,so why you think we will do that?we will lie in order for us to apply to other state?what kind of thinking do you have,do you think we will risk our future by not declaring the denials if ever?

well in fact it was cabon that suggested us to enroll for the deficiency or take lvn exam to still pursue our dreams here in the us,so why need to do those things?for all i know "thinkers are doers"..

@ juan de la cruz:thank you for not being biased with the situations many of us filipino nurses/ien are facing right now..

[Corey Narry, MSN, RN, NP]

my answer for you is that different states have different rules and regulations and with other agency like cgfns that is being use to evaluate each applicant credentials...it seems you want all ien not be given the chance to sit for nclex..and now youre wondering if the applicant are answering honestly that we were denied?..come on we all know that being or getting denied by the cabon is not the end of the world for us filipino nurse/ien...,so why you think we will do that?we will lie in order for us to apply to other state?what kind of thinking do you have,do you think we will risk our future by not declaring the denials if ever?

you are so right! that's why i'm suggesting for people affected to bring their application somewhere else other than california. i live and work in california and while i do like it here, it's not the end of the world if you can't get licensed here. for one, you don't want to join the ranks of the many jobless new grads here - nurses who went to california nursing schools. it's not the best place to find work right now.

most other states use cgfns credentials evaluation service to assess educational eligibility. i've never heard of cgfns denying eligibility to those who graduated from philippine nursing programs. though cgfns involves a long process that could cost you more money, it is an evaluation service that many states use so once you are verified by cgfns, you can carry that document in any other state that would accept it.

being an ien carries a lot of extra requirements us grads don't have to worry about. the requirements don't go away regardless of how long you've practiced in the us. i graduated from the philippines with my bsn in 1991. i took the cgfns qualifying exam in the philippines in 1994 and it's helped me in getting licensed when i first arrived here. i have a cgfns visa screen certificate that i applied for in 1998 and i also received high toefl scores the same year. i have used cgfns services more than once.

though i never struggled with the nclex-rn (passed it with 75 questions the first attempt), i have to meet requirements as an ien when i endorse to another state. my cgfns certificate and visa screen will come in handy in states that require them. so my point is, go for the cgfns ces and apply in states that use them. that is your passport to multi-state licensure as an ien.

[geegeebaby82]

@ Ginger's Mom, yes, I had a chance to study in the States and stay with some relatives, but my parents got very sick so I decided to be with them, luckily, they are still alive today, I don't regret it, wished I had checked out our Phils colleges and the CA BON before, as well as the current new grad positions in the States. I read there are like over 1,000 people or more applying for just a few openings in CA alone, with some states getting just under 1,000 for only a few jobs. I feel at least with a US based education, I would have a better fighting chance to get accepted and I am a very high achieving student.

Yes, I (we) do feel like we were sold a bill of goods from our Phils college system, they truly let us down and disappointly into the wrong path.

@Kayakoto, I wish that was the case of others applying earlier before the recent enforcements of the CA BON rules, but I know of other friend's who did start their applications as early as in Jan.-Feb. 2010 and after hassling with the CA BON for so long they gave up and moved on to other states or other countries, some went the LVN route, but it's not the same as being an RN. I didn't know about this site till recently nor was this such a big problem.

@Juan de la Cruz, what can I say sir, you are such a wealth of great information and a straight shooter, thank you for your advice! You truly are a valuable asset to this website and I'm sure that you exhibit the same to those who works with you, what a pleasure! I re-read over and over again your information provided, it all makes sense. You should be on the CHED board via Skpe and set them straight, lol!

[kayakoto]

@geegeebay82...your are right that LVN is not the same as being RN but its still in the nursing field..the only difference is just the title at the end of our name..and the salary i think..but its all upon us if we want to pursue our profession in another level..:)

[L.A]

are you sure your friends applied jan-feb 2010?the new reinforcement i guess was just implemented last year because i first submitted my application nov.2010 and a month after that was given eligibility but sad to say I didnt pass.::crying2:thats why i reapplied and now waiting for my school to send my copy of clinical cases,still praying no problems will arise,but watever it is its ok,we need to comply.we need to move forward.

[geegeebaby82]

@Kayakoto....yes, at the end of the day, a nurse is a nurse. But for me and my other batchmates, we didn't spend four years of our lives to eventfully become a LVN. There are scope of practices that LVN's can't do that RN's are allowed to do in CA and it does vary from other states. Some out of state hospitals are now getting rid of LVN's or LPN's, since they can hire CNA's for almost half of their salaries and hiring more BSN-RN's. Many LVN's are working in home health care, nursing homes, LTC, SNF, etc and yes, in this tough economy, we should take any jobs, but that's just not me and I will speak on behalf of my batchmates.

My friends who are working in some of the mentioned places could not find a good hospital to work at, as those better hospitals offer better benefits (paid vacations, better salaries, retirement plans, better salaries, etc).

The RN's are able to later move on to higher positions versus the LVN's are not or very limited without a BSN degree.

In all honesty, from my friends working as a LVN's (was Phils BSN's), while they don't mind taking instructions from an RN, like most of the other LVN's they come into contact with are mostly wishing to get out of the LVN work load and become an RN one day, so you can imagine the frustrations they are having of being so close yet so far away.

Doing all the "crap" work (not just the dirty stuff) is okay, it's part of their job and yes, RN's have to do so in a pinch, it's like being a maid (not my words, but what they tell me). What's real hard is when it's a young new grad RN giving out the instructions and thinking that should be me doing that job. It's a matter of pride, sorry, just hard to accept after almost a year as a LVN. So yes, I do share her (their) sentiments and feelings.

Since CA is out of our reach for the time being, I (we) don't mind going to another state if we are allowed to have the RN title on our badge and to show for something after 4 years of the sacrifices we all made. I have heard the term "professional nurse" (RN) versus a "basic" nurse (CNA, LVN, LVP) and most patients don't know or care, they just want to be treated with care and passion and empathy, which all nurses regardless of title should do. I want something to show for it, sorry, that's just me. I'll do it in some other state, come heck or high water, I will do it as all of you will also, somehow someway.

@Proudpinay....yes, they applied in jan-feb 2010, one was my own cousin and a couple of her friends and while it seems that the CA BON didn't start enforcing till April 2010 more heavily, they were still affected, all but one denied. BUT actually, the one that got her ATT, failed the exam, like so many Phils unable to pass it the first time, so you know what happened on her re-application process later.....denied.

Yes, you're right there's nothing that any of us can do, we simply just must work within the CA BON requirements and hope that they can judge fairly on the documentation submitted to them from our schools. Ha, from our schools, I wonder if they are even aware of the situation or even care.

So many of us were caught blind-sided and wiped out due to their lack of action and knowing that they were getting all these requests from their students since 2010 and yet, I have heard nothing has been done to address these horrible problems they have placed on us, but willing to take out our hard earned money and fend for ourselves. Life goes on in Phils as if nothing happened.

This fact is more upsetting than getting angry at the CA BON!

[nursel56]

@Kayakoto....yes, at the end of the day, a nurse is a nurse. But for me and my other batchmates, we didn't spend four years of our lives to eventfully become a LVN.

You know, jobs are very tight here for LVNs, too. In fact, it's almost impossible for a new grad LVN to get a job. I share both their disappointment and their pride of accomplishment. With so many people here with this attitude I say please don't torture yourselves any further. There must be someplace you can go that won't cause you to feel so demeaned. I have had my license in CA for almost 40 years and having a tough time of it job-market wise. Frankly I am sick of this argument. I only wish our state had a unified BON like other states have. The sense of entitlement is mind-boggling.

Doing all the "crap" work (not just the dirty stuff) is okay, it's part of their job and yes, RN's have to do so in a pinch, it's like being a maid (not my words, but what they tell me). What's real hard is when it's a young new grad RN giving out the instructions and thinking that should be me doing that job. It's a matter of pride, sorry, just hard to accept after almost a year as a LVN. So yes, I do share her (their) sentiments and feelings.

Words fail. And that very rarely happens, believe me. If I heard that from any nurse from anywhere it would be just as offensive. This just makes it all the more so. Exactly why should it be you doing that job that new grad RN is doing?

Although I now appreciate the many, wonderful RNs and LVNs so much more than I did. The opposite of pride is shame. I'd rather not have anyone inflict an attitude like that on anyone including the housekeeping staff. If you and your friends think an LVN job is like a maid, I guess I'd rather not know what you think about the people who mop the floors and empty the trash.

[nihaojailan]

I applied 2011 & got my ATT, took the whole May and 1st half of June to study and passed the boards the first time. It's sad that things have to be like this in an attempt to desaturate nursing graduates in California. My cousins and a bunch of friends are now working as an LVN but still wishing to be an RN which in turn makes me respect and help out my cnas and lvns during the shift, i know there's always a chance hurting their pride & i hope everything gets better for everyone here