Vegetarian being asked to dissect a cat !

[roxburin]

Oh geesh, classes have just started and ALREADY I have a problem.

You see I'm a vegetarian and my lab for Anatomy and Physiology has a part to it that is dissecting a cat. Problem is I have a respect for life and am a strict vegetarian (no leather, meat of any kind, etc.) This is part of the reason why I want to become a nurse - to help the world not hurt it. If I dissect a cat then I will be directly responsible for that cat having been killed. What should I do? The lab (as a whole) looks like it is one third of the final grade. I've already emailed the dean of students, and I'm waiting to hear back from him. I can't imagine that I'm the only one to ever have had this problem. Nursing schools weigh GPA very heavily. I want to kick ass.. any suggestions?

I can look in on others doing a dissection (as that is their own choice), but if I do it myself then I become responsible. Sigh.

Thank you in advance..

[sbic56, BSN, RN]

This guy came here with well established beliefs that using a cat for this purpose is morally unacceptable to him. I am sure this is not an uncommon situation. What would a Buddhist do? Everyone is talking like this cat disection is the end all and the only road to nursing. Give me a break! We disected a fetal pig and I can honestly say that experience did not make ne a better nurse. Then, the theory is, that this is a great way to redeem ourselves of our irresponsible pet ownership. So long as we are using these cats to advance the good of man, then all is good. Really? With all of the technological advances we have made, we can nearly visualize what the human body really looks like on video, so why are we disecting small animals? Welcome to the 21st century already!

[MKFaizi]

I know that dissecting anything is repulsive.

Here is a l9vely anecdote from China about twenty-five years ago. This was told to me by one physician with whom I worked closely. She spent some time teaching English in China.

The prison in the town where she was teaching regurlarly sent over the bodies of executed political prisoners to the local medical school as cadavers for dissection.

Eventually, the medical school sent word to the prison that they were quite overwhelmed with cadavers and did not require more.

The prison inquired of the medical school, "Then, may we send them over alive so that you can kill them as you need them?"

Well, I reckon that is pretty bad.

I think the point is that nursing or anything medical is about the betterment and saving of human life, unless you are a veterinarian.

Unfortunately, dissecting a cat in A/P class will not be the most repugnant thing that you will ever do as a nurse. Whether you are vegetarian or not, you will witness many heinous things.

How will you feel the first time you see a victim of a gun shot wound to the face? When the victim is still alive? How will you feel about heroic measures to save his life? What if you instinctively know that this person will live a few weeks or months in a vegetated state before he dies? You instinctively know that his family will believe in vain in his recovery?

What are the ethics involved? Can you deal with the fact that you could be a part of a trauma team that will save a life only to send that life into a vegetative state that is short lived and hopeless?

In such a situation of trauma, no one questions ethics beyond the what is immediate -- save the life. Do everything possible to save the life.

Very noble intentions.

You just have to be ready to live with the outcome.

I understand and agree with your ethical horror about dissecting a cat or a rodent or a human being or anything. Kind of disgusting. But at the same time, it is the body of such cat or rodent or human being that teaches you what you need to understand. My guess is that the reason you are vegetarian is because you have respect for animal and human life.

But how do you expect to save lives and to perpetuate life if you do not understand the organs and vessels and muscles that do it?

In my region of the US as in many regions in the US, deer are very populous. Tons of the lovely animals. Tons of 'em hit by automobiles daily. Pretty creatures. I admit that I would have a problem shooting one.

Yet, we have a hunting season in which many deer are killed and I am not above accepting gifts of deer meat from my patients. Excellent roasts.

If there was no deer hunting season in Virginia, I reckon the deer would take over everything. We would not be able to walk for deer. The deer would take over the interstate and we would not be able to drive to get to classes or to work very easily.

I love cats and dogs. I have three dogs and four cats -- all neutered and spayed. I don't think that psychologically I could eat a cat or dog -- too greasy. That is my cultural conditioning.

However, to further my study of the human condition, I could dissect one of each.

I agree with someone who posted that people are very irresponsible with pets.

Would you feel better about dissecting a deer?

Marsha Faizi

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

This guy came here with well established beliefs that using a cat for this purpose is morally unacceptable to him. I am sure this is not an uncommon situation. What would a Buddhist do? Everyone is talking like this cat disection is the end all and the only road to nursing. Give me a break! We disected a fetal pig and I can honestly say that experience did not make ne a better nurse. Then, the theory is, that this is a great way to redeem ourselves of our irresponsible pet ownership. So long as we are using these cats to advance the good of man, then all is good. Really? With all of the technological advances we have made, we can nearly visualize what the human body really looks like on video, so why are we disecting small animals? Welcome to the 21st century already!

All well and good sbic but that will only hold true when every medical and nursing and veterinarian school goes the way of computer-generated dissection. Right now - they don't.

So, the OP has a few choices to make and has to live with the consequences of those choices.

I took my 4 year old to a museum last week where we saw an awesome frog exhibit - they had a hands-on computer with a program that showed a dissection of a frog - it was very cool. I agree that this could be the answer for this question - but at this moment in time, it isn't happening.

steph

[roxburin]

I suppose my problem would be that if my dissecting the cat made the city pound's job easier because someone was going to use the dead cat or if the school actually paid for the cat therefore creating a market for slaughter then I would feel responsible. I would think I would want to make it more difficult for someone to kill a cat not less. Shrug. Still trying to process everything.

The China post was interresting - imagine if there was a market for killing people like there is for cats.

Right now I'm hoping I can have a hands off experience. I'm not opposed to doing the work mind you. I guess I could watch a dissection(s) taking place in front of me even though I don't approve. In that case, it is someone else's decision to use the dead cat. A technicality for sure. I'm not someone to preach my ethics to other people. I could keep my mouth shut in that case.

See ya!

[sbic56, BSN, RN]

All well and good sbic but that will only hold true when every medical and nursing and veterinarian school goes the way of computer-generated dissection. Right now - they don't.

So, the OP has a few choices to make and has to live with the consequences of those choices.

I took my 4 year old to a museum last week where we saw an awesome frog exhibit - they had a hands-on computer with a program that showed a dissection of a frog - it was very cool. I agree that this could be the answer for this question - but at this moment in time, it isn't happening.

steph

I am not talking the most state of the art technology we have available. Disecting a fetal pig or a cat is not nearly as useful as going through the ADAM program (cheap) when it comes to understanding A&P. Disecting small animals because their organs kind of resemble man is archaic. Old habits/practices need to die and replaced with the new, IMO. Not a useful tool anymore, as we have better at our disposal for not alot of money. BTW, if we can afford to use this great technology to build a display at a museum, shouldn't it be available to educate our healthcare professionals and not just the general public. Something has gone awry here for sure.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I am not talking the most state of the art technology we have available. Disecting a fetal pig or a cat is not nearly as useful as going through the ADAM program (cheap) when it comes to understanding A&P. Disecting small animals because their organs kind of resemble man is archaic. Old habits/practices need to die and replaced with the new, IMO. Not a useful tool anymore, as we have better at our disposal for not alot of money. BTW, if we can afford to use this great technology to build a display at a museum, shouldn't it be available to educate our healthcare professionals and not just the general public. Something has gone awry here for sure.

It still doesn't solve the problem today for the OP. Right now, this instant, he has to take a class where they dissect a cat.

And the museum is funded by a private organization and community donations. :)

steph

[over30nursestudent]

I have heard some funny things over the years but your rationalization about "humans are ta da meat" will make me laugh for years to come!! :rotfl: :chuckle :chuckle :chuckle :chuckle I will hold your meat rationalization dear to my heart!! I plan on sharing it with everyone I know maybe even peta!! It is not a flesh paranoia dear, it has to do with someones personal beliefs. if i had a cadaver to dissect it would not be a problem seeing that a majority of the time there is an "ethical" notion called consent. And if it was someone homeless I am pretty positve they were not experimented on or euthanized. As far as your sour grapes about the diversity of others that may share a class with you; you need to suck it up and practice tolerance and quit acting so petty! As a future nurse you will have to practice tolerance and understanding and learn to respect others beliefs. Imagine if you were put in a situation that would cause a great conflict with your belief system and you sought out advice and received feedback telling you to suck it up how would you feel? lastly, i never dissected anything and exceled in my a/p classes. Yale and Harvard and many other universities seem to have faith in the outcome of their nursing and medical students without the use of animals they have used software programs for years. peace and god bless everything big and small :)

I didn't realize I was going to get slapped with the rude label by posting my opinion to a post asking for opinions. Why is one opinion rude and another not rude.

You know what, yes, I do think he should suck it up. Frankly, if I am in A&P class and I have to dissect a cat and someone else gets a free ride out of an intense lab due to "beliefs", then I am not going to be happy. Everyone here is competing their behinds off for very limited spots in their respective nursing programs. One grade can be the difference between getting in the program and wait list. So I do not think anyone deserves a free ride through any of their classes. I am prepared to work and do what needs to be done to get through my classes. For that matter, human beings are made of flesh, which in simple terms is... ta da... meat. Human cadavers may not come to us under the best circumstances either. They may have died due to falling through cracks in the system and ended up homeless and famliless.

The problem is not that there are cats for disection, the problem is that due to our domestication of cats and their subsequent overpopulation, they are being euthanized.

[sbic56, BSN, RN]

It still doesn't solve the problem today for the OP. Right now, this instant, he has to take a class where they dissect a cat.

And the museum is funded by a private organization and community donations. :)

steph

True, but just because things have always been done that way doesn't mean it's right. Time for change and to allow those who have a problem with the current system to make the requirement in a more logical way.

As far as funding for the museum....community colleges are funded in the same way, so yes, it can be done.

[leopold]

I'm a vegetarian too and I have two cats and I hate the idea of having to dissect one. But you have to also take into account that a lot of meds you will be passing are derived from animal sources and a lot of procedures based on animal experimentation -- and that whole R&D issue on live animals is truly horrifying to me. I don't know what to say, you can't win for losing.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

True, but just because things have always been done that way doesn't mean it's right. Time for change and to allow those who have a problem with the current system to make the requirement in a more logical way.

As far as funding for the museum....community colleges are funded in the same way, so yes, it can be done.

I agree - but not today. And today is when the OP needs to make a decision.

As far as funding - I thought cc's were state funded. :)

steph

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I'm a vegetarian too and I have two cats and I hate the idea of having to dissect one. But you have to also take into account that a lot of meds you will be passing are derived from animal sources and a lot of procedures based on animal experimentation -- and that whole R&D issue on live animals is truly horrifying to me. I don't know what to say, you can't win for losing.

Well, this reminds me of the threads where we debate whether we have the right to refuse, as nurses, based on our ethical beliefs.

The concensus is that we do have the right but at the same time we do not put ourselves into situations or jobs where we know ahead of time that we may encounter things that we will not do. Like being against abortion and then going to work at an abortion clinic.

Maybe the OP is in the wrong profession then . . .. . because you are right that even though medical testing on animals has lessened it still exists and most of the meds we give were tested on animals. So you couldn't escape it no matter what area of nursing you went into.

steph

[Maynmom]

I'm not a vegetarian but it would freak me out to have to dissect a cat. I hope you can find a solution for you dilemma.