After posting the piece about Nurses traveling to Germany and reading the feedback. I would like to open up a debate on this BB about "Universal Health Care" or "Single Payor Systems"
In doing this I hope to learn more about each side of the issue. I do not want to turn this into a heated horrific debate that ends in belittling one another as some other charged topics have ended, but a genuine debate about the Pros and Cons of proposed "Universal Health Care or Single Payor systems" I believe we can all agree to debate and we can all learn things we might not otherwise have the time to research.
I am going to begin by placing an article that discusses the cons of Universal Health Care with some statistics, and if anyone is willing please come in and try to debate some of the key points this brings up. With stats not hyped up words or hot air. I am truly interested in seeing the different sides of this issue. This effects us all, and in order to make an informed decision we need to see "all" sides of the issue. Thanks in advance for participating.
Michele
I am going to have to post the article in several pieces because the bulletin board only will allow 3000 characters.So see the next posts.
I think universal health care will be here within the next 10 years. As soon as U.S. corporations realize -- and they do, in growing numbers -- that this country is the only major industrialized nation that requires them to tack the cost of a worker's health care onto their products' prices, they'll demand a level playing field.
Toyota found that level playing field last year by opting to build a new plant in Ontario, ignoring hundreds of millions of dollars in financial incentives offered by southern states. Why? Because Canada has a national health plan. So all those jobs -- and the money they generate -- went north. And companies that treat their workers well in this country by providing them with health care remain penalized. They don't have that competitive edge.
As the playing field becomes more and more uneven, American lawmakers will realize -- for economic reasons -- that health care has to be a right, not a privilege.
As the playing field becomes more and more uneven, American lawmakers will realize -- for economic reasons -- that health care has to be a right, not a privilege.
What I have a 'right' to, a Constitutional right to, is for the government to stay out of my life to the greatest extent possible.
And THAT's not just some privilege - it's my right.
Massive redistributions of wealth is nothing more then theft. If it served some greater good, maybe I'd listen to bleeding heart liberals. But trillions of dollars later, and the 'great society' is a failure. Social Security is a pryamid scheme that will bankrupt long before I see a dime of it. Our public schools systems are in shambles, and NOW, I'm supposed to trust the gov't with my health? That's what's laughable, or it would be, if the concept didn't involve outright theft from me, in terms of both money AND my available healthcare.
No thanks. I disagree with this concept because it does the most harm to the most people, not the other way around.
Government is neither my friend nor my daddy. It's a necessary evil to be minimally tolerated. You'll just have to excuse me if I evaluate the past performance of government in an equation that involves entrusting it to my health. I'm not greatly inspired by the concept.
I personally, don't want to see Universal Healthcare here. What I want, is for the drug companies to be more regulated and stop ripping off the public, and for it to be illegal to advertise ambulance chasing attorney's on TV. I don't think every mistake or error a doctor makes justifies a lawsuit, regardless of the outcome. Some of those people wouldn't get a dime if I was sitting on the jury and I would hold it out to the bitter end.
I worked at a pizza place in college and had a boss that had to bring his mother over from the UK and get a cholesteral plug removed from her jugler vein and paid CASH for it, b/c she was so far down the waiting list for a surgery that he feared she was going to die before she got the surgery.
I don't want the gov't controlling which doctor I see, or if I can get a second opinion or not.
I also don't want to pay the exhorbant taxes that comes with Universal Healthcare.
Citizens here in the USA complain about how much we pay in taxes, but for what we GET for our tax dollars flat out beats about any other industrialized country out there....and I love it.
I'm not bashing the UK, but I want to keep the healthcare the way it is...flaws and all.
Specializes in Critical Care, Cardiothoracics, VADs.
Australia is going the other way. We've always had Medicare for everyone, and you pay a fee in your tax depending on income, for free care in public hospitals. You could then buy additional private health cover. Now however, if you're aged 30+ and you don't get private cover, you get penalized by having to pay a Medicare levy/penalty in addition to your regular Medicare tax.
I like our system, although it's increasingly difficult for public patients waiting for "elective" surgery to get hospital beds.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
Because, as the 20th century amply showed, communism doesn't work, anywhere it's tried
Funny that, I purposefully DIDN'T use the phrase "socialized medicine" for fear that I would have the conservatives amongst us running for cover screaming "Aaaaargh, REDS UNDER THE BED" and look at that. It happened anyway. I'm so sorry to have frightened you Timothy, I really didn't mean to.:kiss
Listen carefully Timothy - "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMUNISM". You can relax, it's just not true. You don't need to believe the lie anymore.
Are all the other industrialized nations in the world that have universal health care coverage communist? Japan? No. UK? No. Germany? No. Canada? No. etc etc. I just don't get the connection.
A single payor universal health care system is a health care payment NOT a health care delivery system - it remains a fee for service system. Just because the defense system is publicly subsidized, does that make it a Socialized Defense System?:rotfl:Of course not. We all pay taxes, we all get defended because we all need defended, that's how it works. So as far as I know we all need healthcare (except for that cheerleader character on that TV show "Heroes"), we all (well most of us) pay taxes, so why don't we all get healthcare coverage?
Don't you feel that the current system discriminates against you - just because your not over 65 (or below 18, in some places), disabled, have a chronic medical condition or are poor you don't deserve to join this program. You have to pay for it, because you are keeping yourself healthy and being a productive member of society and paying your taxes. But, you, the person that is actually paying for the care of others, apparently does not deserve to participate in the same health care program. Again I don't get it - I'm losing while others are gaining and I'm playing by the rules.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
but I want to keep the healthcare the way it is...flaws and all.
I guess you didn't realise that the Medicare system is going to implode by 2019 due to lack of funding and that the corporations that provide these benefits and our jobs are going broke due to the increased expense of health care. Then what will we do? ( I'd be interested in your suggestions). We do not have a choice. We have to plan for the future now.
And the problem with our health-care system is because it's a 3rd party payor system, people have given up the responsibility to be part of their own health-care solutions.
How is bringing that 'full circle' a better solution?
What our healthcare system needs is some good ole capitalist reforms that make people, as you say, MORE connected to the process - not less.
The problem with 'standardized' healthcare is that 'standard' is all too often, quite substandard. No thanks.
What you fail to realize is that most people here wouldn't trust the gov't to take care of their dog. You aren't going to get a groundswell of American support to turn their healthcare over to such renowned inefficiency.
~faith,
Timothy.
Not trying to start an argument or flame here. Just a good old friendly debate :)
Yep, my brother-in-law, with a traumatic brain injury, sure failed to take care of his health. all his fault. You must still be young. Are you in perfect health? Is your weight within guidelines? Do you exercise at least 30 minutes every day of the week? Do you eat a healthy diet? Even if you do, can you guarantee that you are not going to have an accident or health related issue that might not just knock you to the ground? Do you have family or friends that will be willing to pick you up and support you?
Yep, I'm surely going to go for that preventative health care exam when I know I'll have to figure out who's going to give it to me at the cheapest rate, which I will then pay out of pocket. That little bit of unusual bleeding? Ah, probably not worth spending the $100 to get it checked out, until of course it becomes cancer and then will cost thousands more.
Yep, good old corporations can be entrusted to take care of people beyond their own fat cat CEO's. Those same wonderful companies outsourcing jobs by the thousands. if our healthcare is so superior, why do statistics and studies prove otherwise?
Listen carefully Timothy - "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMUNISM". You can relax, it's just not true. You don't need to believe the lie anymore.
Are all the other industrialized nations in the world that have universal health care coverage communist? Japan? No. UK? No. Germany? No. Canada? No. etc etc. I just don't get the connection.
LOL
Timothy, are you a libertarian? Sink or swim baby? Get rid of that evil Government? All our wonderful corporations will just take care of us all?
Australia is going the other way. We've always had Medicare for everyone, and you pay a fee in your tax depending on income, for free care in public hospitals. You could then buy additional private health cover. Now however, if you're aged 30+ and you don't get private cover, you get penalized by having to pay a Medicare levy/penalty in addition to your regular Medicare tax.
I like our system, although it's increasingly difficult for public patients waiting for "elective" surgery to get hospital beds.
Well, my mom is waiting well over two months for "elective" knee replacement.
I still don't believe people are dying waiting for care in Europe any more than they are in the US. That's been a myth told to us to scare us commies away from thinking we need some type of basic single payer medical coverage in this country.
I do understand there are difficulties in most "systems". I don't believe it's CAUSED by the government tho. I am not a raging socialist/communist. I beleive there are certain things that a civilized society believes it's citizens should have access to. No matter what, there are going to be people in ANY society that will not be able to "swim". Claiming that the governement paying a fee to a privately run health care system for coverage for all citizens means that the leeches will surface doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I personally, don't want to see Universal Healthcare here. What I want, is for the drug companies to be more regulated and stop ripping off the public, and for it to be illegal to advertise ambulance chasing attorney's on TV. I don't think every mistake or error a doctor makes justifies a lawsuit, regardless of the outcome. Some of those people wouldn't get a dime if I was sitting on the jury and I would hold it out to the bitter end.
I worked at a pizza place in college and had a boss that had to bring his mother over from the UK and get a cholesteral plug removed from her jugler vein and paid CASH for it, b/c she was so far down the waiting list for a surgery that he feared she was going to die before she got the surgery.
I don't want the gov't controlling which doctor I see, or if I can get a second opinion or not.
I also don't want to pay the exhorbant taxes that comes with Universal Healthcare.
Citizens here in the USA complain about how much we pay in taxes, but for what we GET for our tax dollars flat out beats about any other industrialized country out there....and I love it.
I'm not bashing the UK, but I want to keep the healthcare the way it is...flaws and all.
You are already paying exhorbatant taxes for things other countires get that we don't have. People are mistaken if they believe we pay fewer taxes than Europe. We don't. And I'm sorry, we don't "get" a lot for our taxes. Our infrastructure is crumbling, we have no way around relying on foreign oil, no health coverage, etc. etc. They have a transport/rail system that makes this country look like a third world country. They have health coverage for citizens, imperfect as it might be. They have successful programs that keep troubled teens off the street in Germany, and provides education and training to ensure they become functioning adults. Their streets are clean and well maintained. You can't walk through San Francisco, which should be one of the most beautiful cities in the world, w/o stepping on a homeless person or their "droppings"....or various other piles of trash. Some of it is a difference in culture, some of it is tax dollars making sure things are kept up. I'm not saying problems are absent in Europe, but I see it on a smaller scale. We all have problems.
You don't think someone isn't controlling what doctor you see in our current "system"? You must either be paying for it yourself, or have really expensive insurance.
I agree that reform needs to be in place regarding lawsuits. That isn't the only thing "wrong" with the system tho. Our "system" is far more expensive than in any other industrialized country per patient. It will only get worse. There will be more and more of those wonderful capitalist corporations starting to refuse to provide coverage to employees. It's not just a matter of Public Health, it's also a matter of maintaing competitiveness. The costs of health care are just going to stop being subsidized by corporations. That's already beginning to happen.
All of this is of course JMO, and I'm glad I am able to express it.
You are already paying exhorbatant taxes for things other countires get that we don't have. People are mistaken if they believe we pay fewer taxes than Europe. We don't. And I'm sorry, we don't "get" a lot for our taxes. Our infrastructure is crumbling, we have no way around relying on foreign oil, no health coverage, etc. etc. They have a transport/rail system that makes this country look like a third world country. They have health coverage for citizens, imperfect as it might be. They have successful programs that keep troubled teens off the street in Germany, and provides education and training to ensure they become functioning adults. Their streets are clean and well maintained. You can't walk through San Francisco, which should be one of the most beautiful cities in the world, w/o stepping on a homeless person or their "droppings"....or various other piles of trash. Some of it is a difference in culture, some of it is tax dollars making sure things are kept up. I'm not saying problems are absent in Europe, but I see it on a smaller scale. We all have problems.
You don't think someone isn't controlling what doctor you see in our current "system"? You must either be paying for it yourself, or have really expensive insurance.
I agree that reform needs to be in place regarding lawsuits. That isn't the only thing "wrong" with the system tho. Our "system" is far more expensive than in any other industrialized country per patient. It will only get worse. There will be more and more of those wonderful capitalist corporations starting to refuse to provide coverage to employees. It's not just a matter of Public Health, it's also a matter of maintaing competitiveness. The costs of health care are just going to stop being subsidized by corporations. That's already beginning to happen.
All of this is of course JMO, and I'm glad I am able to express it.
Have a lovely day.
You show me a country that gets more benefits, has a stronger military, a better school system, a better university system, a free choice economy, free choice employment, free choice travel, free choice medical, and pay LESS taxes for it, and enjoys the level of peace and freedom, and quality of living that we have here. (and that is COLLECTIVELY)...and I'll put in for a VISA to move there tomorrow.
I could go industrialized country by industrialized country and name MAJOR things that you couldn't pay me to look over if I went there. I'm not going to go over that list here b/c we have members from other countries and I think that would be offensive to them.
I love visiting other countries, they are beautiful travel destinations, but as far as living, there is no way I would live anywhere but here.
Americans already pay taxes for health care: We wind up picking up the cost of care for workers who don't get insurance through their jobs. Some uninsured workers and their families wind up on Medicaid; if they're not on Medicaid, they're likely to wind up in the emergency room, which taxpayers subsidize. And the number of uninsured is growing.
America already has a successful single-payer insurance system, only not everyone is eligible for it. It's Medicare. And for folks who want the government to stay out of their lives, that's fine -- if you don't want to participate in Medicare, you don't have to. But at least it's there for those who might otherwise have no alternative.
Princeton economist Paul Krugman estimates that the savings from a single-payer system would probably exceed $200 billion a year, far more than the cost of covering all of those now uninsured.
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Freedom42
914 Posts
I think universal health care will be here within the next 10 years. As soon as U.S. corporations realize -- and they do, in growing numbers -- that this country is the only major industrialized nation that requires them to tack the cost of a worker's health care onto their products' prices, they'll demand a level playing field.
Toyota found that level playing field last year by opting to build a new plant in Ontario, ignoring hundreds of millions of dollars in financial incentives offered by southern states. Why? Because Canada has a national health plan. So all those jobs -- and the money they generate -- went north. And companies that treat their workers well in this country by providing them with health care remain penalized. They don't have that competitive edge.
As the playing field becomes more and more uneven, American lawmakers will realize -- for economic reasons -- that health care has to be a right, not a privilege.