After posting the piece about Nurses traveling to Germany and reading the feedback. I would like to open up a debate on this BB about "Universal Health Care" or "Single Payor Systems"
In doing this I hope to learn more about each side of the issue. I do not want to turn this into a heated horrific debate that ends in belittling one another as some other charged topics have ended, but a genuine debate about the Pros and Cons of proposed "Universal Health Care or Single Payor systems" I believe we can all agree to debate and we can all learn things we might not otherwise have the time to research.
I am going to begin by placing an article that discusses the cons of Universal Health Care with some statistics, and if anyone is willing please come in and try to debate some of the key points this brings up. With stats not hyped up words or hot air. I am truly interested in seeing the different sides of this issue. This effects us all, and in order to make an informed decision we need to see "all" sides of the issue. Thanks in advance for participating.
Michele
I am going to have to post the article in several pieces because the bulletin board only will allow 3000 characters.So see the next posts.
You show me a country that gets more benefits, has a stronger military, a better school system, a better university system, a free choice economy, free choice employment, free choice travel, free choice medical, and pay LESS taxes for it, and enjoys the level of peace and freedom, and quality of living that we have here. (and that is COLLECTIVELY)...and I'll put in for a VISA to move there tomorrow.
I could go industrialized country by industrialized country and name MAJOR things that you couldn't pay me to look over if I went there. I'm not going to go over that list here b/c we have members from other countries and I think that would be offensive to them.
I love visiting other countries, they are beautiful travel destinations, but as far as living, there is no way I would live anywhere but here.
Per capita, we are a ridiculously wealthy nation.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I won't open my mouth on this any longer as it's not what the debate is really about and it's gotten off track. And I gotta study :). (I'm not a nursing student, but I like to keep up with the issues since we will all be part of a team at some point).
I guess you didn't realise that the Medicare system is going to implode by 2019 due to lack of funding and that the corporations that provide these benefits and our jobs are going broke due to the increased expense of health care. Then what will we do? ( I'd be interested in your suggestions). We do not have a choice. We have to plan for the future now.
If you fall for the Republican agenda and scare tactics, yes, it would seem that it will. But I don't. It's propaganda to justify the privatizing of the entire system. The facts are, there are more people paying into the system now than ever before in American history. Not everyone LIVES to see retirement, and that is money paid in that is never paid out.
The Republicans started borrowing money from the fund the Democrats never did that....you start taking money away from any program and not replacing it and that is where you will see a problem, but it looks like that is getting ready to correct itself very soon with the last election.
The other problem is we have too many illegals here with SS#'s stolen from the dead that are collecting these benefits, and there are people from foreign countries that are coming over here in their retirement years, working for 3 to 5 years and collecting like they had always lived here...THAT is what has to stop.
I am all for immigration but I have zero tolerance for illegal immigrations. Everyone can't live here. That's a fact. I know there are people that are going through hardships all over the world, but unless we want to end up like China where they are facing a global starvation problem and have to take measures such as infanticide to assure they don't starve to death, the illegal immigration needs to stop.
How do you enforce it? The same way you enforce anything else...you make the penalties so stiff for people that employ them or house them and I promise you, it will stop. They won't stay if they don't have a place to work and they don't have a place to live.
Both of my parents came from Europe...but both came over here legally.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I won't open my mouth on this any longer as it's not what the debate is really about and it's gotten off track. And I gotta study :). (I'm not a nursing student, but I like to keep up with the issues since we will all be part of a team at some point).
Thank you for your thoughts. Have a fabulous day.
Good luck with your program...seriously !!!
But that is just it...an opinion (both of us). Just because I don't want to live someplace else doesn't mean someone else doesn't, and that is another freedom that America offers...the freedom to leave.
Americans already pay taxes for health care: We wind up picking up the cost of care for workers who don't get insurance through their jobs. Some uninsured workers and their families wind up on Medicaid; if they're not on Medicaid, they're likely to wind up in the emergency room, which taxpayers subsidize. And the number of uninsured is growing.
America already has a successful single-payer insurance system, only not everyone is eligible for it. It's Medicare. And for folks who want the government to stay out of their lives, that's fine -- if you don't want to participate in Medicare, you don't have to. But at least it's there for those who might otherwise have no alternative.
Princeton economist Paul Krugman estimates that the savings from a single-payer system would probably exceed $200 billion a year, far more than the cost of covering all of those now uninsured.
I agree. I also think Doctors get overpaid. Now, don't get me wrong, I 100% believe in them being at the top of the income food chain...they spend alot of hours in school, alot of hours in residency, alot of hours working. They deserve to live at an above average life.
However, like for example, both times when my mother had triple bypass surgery...the bills were around (and this was the negotiated rates by the insurance company) $60K each.
Why? She only spent 5 days in the hospital both times.
Organ transplants...I have seen figures over $100,000....why? The organ is free!!!!! Why should a doctor that performs a life-saving procedure be able to charge massive amounts for the work? Do I think he should be able to make ALOT? Absolutely! I just think what they are charging is getting out of control.
Hi BSNtobe. Not saying I am moving to Europe. I do believe we have been a bit arrogant in the U.S to assume we are so superior. I have relatives in Europe... London, Central Europe, Germany, etc. During my first go-around in college my best friend was from Holland. In regards to your question about showing another country with more "freedom" than the U.S., I would point to Holland.
Thanks for the good wishes, and best of luck to you in school, and in your career as an RN.
I agree. I also think Doctors get overpaid. Now, don't get me wrong, I 100% believe in them being at the top of the income food chain...they spend alot of hours in school, alot of hours in residency, alot of hours working. They deserve to live at an above average life.
However, like for example, both times when my mother had triple bypass surgery...the bills were around (and this was the negotiated rates by the insurance company) $60K each.
Why? She only spent 5 days in the hospital both times.
Organ transplants...I have seen figures over $100,000....why? The organ is free!!!!! Why should a doctor that performs a life-saving procedure be able to charge massive amounts for the work? Do I think he should be able to make ALOT? Absolutely! I just think what they are charging is getting out of control.
Have you seen the malpractice rates doctors have to pay? Have you seen reimbursement rates they receive? I don't think they are incredibly overpaid for their level of training, the hours that they work, and the responsibility they have. Those bills she paid for bypass... think about how complicated the procedure is. The doctor isn't receiving all of that money... it's distributed over a large group with their hands in the pie. :)
Funny that, I purposefully DIDN'T use the phrase "socialized medicine" for fear that I would have the conservatives amongst us running for cover screaming "Aaaaargh, REDS UNDER THE BED" and look at that. It happened anyway. I'm so sorry to have frightened you Timothy, I really didn't mean to.:kiss
Listen carefully Timothy - "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMUNISM". You can relax, it's just not true. You don't need to believe the lie anymore.
It has everything to do with communism, or rather, the FAILURES of pollyanna gov't. In reality, people are driven by incentives: what's in it for me. That's always been the case. The real study of economics is the study of human incentives.
EVERYTIME you remove those incentives, what you get is inefficiency, disrepect, and abuse of such systems. Look at medicaid. Look at the respect that those that have their services provided for them give to those services. It just creates an ever more 'entitlement' mentality.
Look, communism works GREAT on paper: everybody puts in equally and everybody gets out equally. It's a dismal failure BECAUSE it ignores the incentive to put in equally, or, conversely, to take out equally. Or, as a former Soviet instructor of mine liked to quote: as long as they pretend to pay me, I'll pretend to work. Or, let's try a German quote regarding socialized systems: 'It's an average year. It's not as good as last year, but HEY! - It's better than next year."
The problem with your 'socialized' medicine is that it removes the incentive to both use the system well, and to create the system. Both patients and health care providers become cogs in the system, and being good at being either is no longer a necessary requirement as there is no incentive to do so.
Healthcare is 1/7th of our economy. 'Socializing' it is indeed and attempt to move the balance of our economy to communistic principles. Everywhere socialized medicine is in play, what you see is long lines, disgruntled workers, rules that necessarily must be enforced to ration care, and a push by those that can afford it to bypass the system. You create just another 'the rich get richer scheme' with socialized medicine only now, only the very well off can afford to seek real and timely care.
As far as using Europe as an example. The system is so dismal there, that people don't even want to bring children into it. The population dearth is killing their 'cradle to grave' societies. Not enough cradles, anymore, it seems.
I understand the need not to call it what it is: socialized medicine. Most people, even those that are clamoring for this change, don't particularly hold a high regard for the efficiency and well-meaning of gov't.
I'm a conservative with libertarian streaks. I inherently distrust the gov't. So do many Americans. Do you know WHY many Americans voted for Dems or didn't vote this time around? Because they wanted a divided gov't - because they felt that the Republicans SHOULD be checked. And that check serves to make gov't 'gridlocked'. Gridlock is a good thing. A gov't that can't move ANY agenda forward is one I don't have to worry about as much over the next 2 yrs.
To the extent gov't can't do anything major to my rights, the people are well served.
But, the Dems were bitten by 'healthcare' reform in 1993. The results were the 1994 election. They are welcome, in my book, to try again. This IS basic economics: the study of incentives. Money DOES talk, and a system that proposes that I spend MORE money for LESS care speaks volumes.
And THAT my friend, is a testament to the failures of overbloated bureaucracies. All this proposal does is institutionalize such failures.
What you propose is that, instead of ELECTING to buy a product from the big 3 and subsidize their healthcare, that I instead be REQUIRED to do so, whether I buy their product, or not.
What you remove from the system is even MORE important: the incentive to 'build a better mousetrap'. Or rather, once that 1,000/vehicle is transferred to my taxes, do you truly believe that the price of that auto will drop by a grand? Or, do you believe, as is FAR more likely, that the big 3 will simply be further rewarded for their mismanagement by passing that mismanagement off to me directly?
I stand amazed at the ready willingness of those that traditionally advocate AGAINST the taxpayer subsidizing of 'big business' to be heartily for it, when it promotes their agendas.
Timothy, with all due respect, hogwash. You must have a lot of relatives in Europe, or have spent a great amount of time there.. because you are an expert in how unhappy they all are. Libertarians have a smug little attitude of "sink or swim sucker". Because the U.S goes to a single payer system, doesn't mean I'm all the sudden going to quit my profession (or my future new profession for that matter) so that I can suck off the government and free health care. It doesn't mean I'm going to start going to the doctor for a sore hang nail. Like I have stated, IMHO, there will always be those that can't swim, and will "abuse" the system. The government doesn't force this to happen, it's a matter of human character or mental state. My relatives in Europe are all happy, working (or retired), productive members of society, who believe that others should be the same. They also realize there will always be those that aren't. We have them here in the U.S. as well, and disbanding the government doesn't mean they just suddenly disappear.
And THAT my friend, is a testament to the failures of overbloated bureaucracies. All this proposal does is institutionalize such failures.
What you propose is that, instead of ELECTING to buy a product from the big 3 and subsidize their healthcare, that I instead be REQUIRED to do so, whether I buy their product, or not.
~faith,
Timothy.
Timothy, it's health insurance that is killing them. It's the fact that despite what you want to believe, this country pays far more for health coverage than other industrialized nations per person. How does this translate iinto institutionalized failures? Have you given up your health insurance in order to pay out of pocket for your own coverage? I bet not. Why not?
Timothy, you are already subsidizing health care, at a much higher rate than necessary. An unemployed, disabled, single mother of two (sorry for the crude example) is not going to pay for health care out of pocket whether you try to force her to or not. Why would you even want to force her to do so? Are you that cruel and uncivilized?
cabkrun
44 Posts
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I won't open my mouth on this any longer as it's not what the debate is really about and it's gotten off track. And I gotta study :). (I'm not a nursing student, but I like to keep up with the issues since we will all be part of a team at some point).
Thank you for your thoughts. Have a fabulous day.